Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

I was wondering about that off-list, and I was asked to create a new 
topic about that.

I recently went through the signing procedure, and one thing I didn't 
like which can be improved: the specific steps up to sending a mail to 
assign@gnu.org are not documented. In my case I had to send a private 
mail to Eli asking for the assignment form, he sent it back to me along 
with further instructions; then I filled the form and sent it to 
assign@gnu.org.

This is a roundtrip that takes time for both maintainer and a user. 
Additionally, users are not even sure if what they're doing is correct, 
e.g. look at the last "assignment"-titled mail on this list, it starts 
with "I'm not sure if it's the right place to ask this". Yes, neither 
was I! That only adds  up confusion and frustration (which is likely 
already there because you can't "just contribute" like with other FOSS 
projects). Even more so when one has social communication problems, 
which I think is not that rare among scientists/developers.

It would really help if the emacs documentation about assignment¹ has 
either α) a paragraph with the form to be sent to assign@gnu.org and 
according instructions, or β) if it has to be documented on another 
site, e.g. FSF's, it would help to put a link to emacs documentation¹ 
after the words "Copyright assignment is a simple process." (and I hope 
that this would-be referred documentation includes α; preferrably with 
any legal notes — if there will be any — moved somewhere at the 
bottom).

1: 
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Copyright-Assignment.html#Copyright-Assignment

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Stefan Monnier]

> I recently went through the signing procedure, and one thing I didn't like
> which can be improved: the specific steps up to sending a mail to
> assign@gnu.org are not documented.

This is actually not really Emacs-specific so it should be discussed
elsewhere, but indeed, it would help if the FSF replaced the "form" with
a web-page.


        Stefan

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 02:33:21 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> 
> I recently went through the signing procedure, and one thing I didn't 
> like which can be improved: the specific steps up to sending a mail to 
> assign@gnu.org are not documented. In my case I had to send a private 
> mail to Eli asking for the assignment form, he sent it back to me along 
> with further instructions; then I filled the form and sent it to 
> assign@gnu.org.
> 
> This is a roundtrip that takes time for both maintainer and a user. 

Don't worry about the maintainer's time.  It took me all of 10 sec to
respond with the form and the instructions for filling it.

> Additionally, users are not even sure if what they're doing is correct, 
> e.g. look at the last "assignment"-titled mail on this list, it starts 
> with "I'm not sure if it's the right place to ask this". Yes, neither 
> was I!

The only way I can understand this particular aspect of the issue is
by assuming that people don't read the section in the Emacs manual
where this is described, the one you quoted in your email, because
that section explicitly tells to ask on emacs-devel.

I can understand why this could happen: our user manual, being such a
large document, it is not the best place to include this information
and hope that it will be easily discoverable there.  So I've included
that information near the beginning of CONTRIBUTE, which is about the
first document potential contributors should read before sending
patches.

> It would really help if the emacs documentation about assignment¹ has 
> either α) a paragraph with the form to be sent to assign@gnu.org and 
> according instructions, or β) if it has to be documented on another 
> site, e.g. FSF's, it would help to put a link to emacs documentation¹ 
> after the words "Copyright assignment is a simple process." (and I hope 
> that this would-be referred documentation includes α; preferrably with 
> any legal notes — if there will be any — moved somewhere at the 
> bottom).

If the FSF places the forms on some official site, and accompany them
with the necessary instructions about how to choose the correct one
(yes, there's more than one form), then I agree that we should
reference that place in our docs.  But I don't think it's right for us
to include the assignment form(s) in our docs, because we are not the
source of the document, and don't really have to understand all the
intricacies of the process, starting with how to choose the correct
form for each case.  (Gnulib does include the forms in its repository,
but I don't think this is TRT for any GNU project to do that.)

I think having the information in CONTRIBUTE will make it much more
discoverable.  As for the time it takes to ask for the form and send
it in response, I don't see that as a significant issue.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Clément Pit-Claudel]

On 2019-04-11 09:51, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> So I've included
> that information near the beginning of CONTRIBUTE, which is about the
> first document potential contributors should read before sending
> patches.

Great idea. Thanks Eli.

I wonder if https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/ could grow a 'Contribute' page.  We have a link to https://www.gnu.org/help/help.html under 'Help GNU', but maybe we also want to repeat the Emacs-relevant part of that page on Emacs' website?  We could include a link to the repo, a brief description of the assignment process, and a pointer to the CONTRIBUTE file.

Clément.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/11/19 6:51 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> I've included
> that information near the beginning of CONTRIBUTE, which is about the
> first document potential contributors should read before sending
> patches.

This sounds like a good approach. Although contributing to Emacs is not
that simple, we should strive to ease people into it rather than give
them all the rules in one big (and forbidding) gulp.

As for the request to put the forms online: I think the idea is that we
want human interaction there, so that we can help the contributor by
selecting the form appropriate for their contribution. It's not like
we're so swamped by potential contributors that we can't handle the load
of giving them this little help. That being said, if you want an online
copy of the forms you can get it here:

https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/tree/doc/Copyright/

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 11:03:55 -0700
> 
> As for the request to put the forms online: I think the idea is that we
> want human interaction there, so that we can help the contributor by
> selecting the form appropriate for their contribution. It's not like
> we're so swamped by potential contributors that we can't handle the load
> of giving them this little help.

I agree.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

В Чт, апр 11, 2019 at 16:51, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> 
написал:
>>  Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 02:33:21 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
>> 
>>  I recently went through the signing procedure, and one thing I 
>> didn't
>>  like which can be improved: the specific steps up to sending a mail 
>> to
>>  assign@gnu.org are not documented. In my case I had to send a 
>> private
>>  mail to Eli asking for the assignment form, he sent it back to me 
>> along
>>  with further instructions; then I filled the form and sent it to
>>  assign@gnu.org.
>> 
>>  This is a roundtrip that takes time for both maintainer and a user.
> 
> Don't worry about the maintainer's time.  It took me all of 10 sec to
> respond with the form and the instructions for filling it.
> 
>>  Additionally, users are not even sure if what they're doing is 
>> correct,
>>  e.g. look at the last "assignment"-titled mail on this list, it 
>> starts
>>  with "I'm not sure if it's the right place to ask this". Yes, 
>> neither
>>  was I!
> 
> The only way I can understand this particular aspect of the issue is
> by assuming that people don't read the section in the Emacs manual
> where this is described, the one you quoted in your email, because
> that section explicitly tells to ask on emacs-devel.

Not really. The section I quoted tells to ask any questions on 
emacs-devel, but not to ask for the form/instructions in there. When I 
read that section I'm getting stuck "What do I do now? Yeah, I can ask 
a question on emacs-devel, but that sounds silly, because sure 
somewhere here should be the steps for what to do now". So I'm reading 
the section over and over, then I start googling, reading through a 
bunch of irrelevant stuff on the internet… And only then, as I give 
up, I, depending on the level of frustration, do either of α) lay that 
aside to some distant future, or β) ask a non-confident question here 
about assignment.

> I can understand why this could happen: our user manual, being such a
> large document, it is not the best place to include this information
> and hope that it will be easily discoverable there.  So I've included
> that information near the beginning of CONTRIBUTE, which is about the
> first document potential contributors should read before sending
> patches.
> 
>>  It would really help if the emacs documentation about assignment¹ 
>> has
>>  either α) a paragraph with the form to be sent to assign@gnu.org 
>> and
>>  according instructions, or β) if it has to be documented on another
>>  site, e.g. FSF's, it would help to put a link to emacs 
>> documentation¹
>>  after the words "Copyright assignment is a simple process." (and I 
>> hope
>>  that this would-be referred documentation includes α; preferrably 
>> with
>>  any legal notes — if there will be any — moved somewhere at the
>>  bottom).
> 
> If the FSF places the forms on some official site, and accompany them
> with the necessary instructions about how to choose the correct one
> (yes, there's more than one form), then I agree that we should
> reference that place in our docs.  But I don't think it's right for us
> to include the assignment form(s) in our docs, because we are not the
> source of the document, and don't really have to understand all the
> intricacies of the process, starting with how to choose the correct
> form for each case.  (Gnulib does include the forms in its repository,
> but I don't think this is TRT for any GNU project to do that.)

Although GNU Emacs indeed are not the source for form, however it is 
Emacs that has the mandatory requirement for the assignment. This means 
it is correct for Emacs to have it documented — one way or another.

> I think having the information in CONTRIBUTE will make it much more
> discoverable.  As for the time it takes to ask for the form and send
> it in response, I don't see that as a significant issue.

Okay, maybe it's not an issue for you, because you're used to the 
mailing list, as well as to replies to assignment form inqueries.

But it is an issue for an arbitrary user who wants the form.

First of: there's no requirement for a contributor to be subscribed 
here, since patches go to debbugs site anyway. And a user may not know 
how to use a mailing list: does one have to subscribe? How to 
subscribe? What to do with dozens of mails from the list every day? 
Nowadays you can't reasonably expect arbitrary peoples to know how MLs 
work.

Second: a user may not be a native speaker, so composing a mail may 
take time for that alone reason. You can't expect a contributor to be a 
good speaker either, because they could be e.g. just a student who 
wants to improve the app they're using as part of their paper.

Third: sending to a -devel ML means asking real developers. This may be 
an overwhelming thought, making one to try to avoid that as much as 
possible. I'm telling that from my own past experience: though right 
now I'm comfortable (I work as a developer, I contributed to many 
projects, I just got used to being around developers), but it wasn't 
always true. Just 3-4 years ago I'd be really afraid, thinking "But 
assignment form doesn't sound like a development question, am I sure 
this is correct? Won't they make laugh of me?".

Fourth: sending to an ML means there's a bunch of people, and everyone 
gonna see your mail. If you have social communication problems, for 
example sociophobia, this is a demotivational factor.

Fifth: asking specifically for copyright assignment on ML feels like 
yelling "look everyone, I'm gonna contribute to Emacs!", whereas one 
may not even be sure about usefulness of planned contributions. One may 
just have some thoughts for improvements, but they may not pan out for 
one reason or another. I think this may demotivate anyone, doubly so if 
one has social communication problems.

And don't forget that the factors can be combined! Whereas the fix is 
dead easy: just make it clear how to get the form and instructions 
without any interaction.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Stefan Monnier]

> As for the request to put the forms online: I think the idea is that we
> want human interaction there, so that we can help the contributor by
> selecting the form appropriate for their contribution.

I think for many people it would be nicer if we can point them to
a web-page than sending them a text form to email.

As for the choice, I think it's best to only present them with the
"assign.future" form first, and leave discussion of alternatives if/when
they find it problematic.

But there is the risk that they end up signing something for "ELPA"
or for their one current project instead of signing for "Emacs" and then
later come to regret it because it forces them to go through the whole
process again.

> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/tree/doc/Copyright/

That's not a web form.


        Stefan

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:09 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > The only way I can understand this particular aspect of the issue is
> > by assuming that people don't read the section in the Emacs manual
> > where this is described, the one you quoted in your email, because
> > that section explicitly tells to ask on emacs-devel.
> 
> Not really. The section I quoted tells to ask any questions on 
> emacs-devel, but not to ask for the form/instructions in there.

I admit I don't understand this logic.  You are told to ask _anything_
about the assignment process on this list, including for how to start
the process:

     Copyright assignment is a simple process.  Residents of some
  countries can do it entirely electronically.  We can help you get
  started, and answer any questions you may have (or point you to the
  people with the answers), at the <emacs-devel@gnu.org> mailing list.

So why would someone think that asking about the form is
inappropriate?

> Although GNU Emacs indeed are not the source for form, however it is 
> Emacs that has the mandatory requirement for the assignment.

No, every GNU project has this requirement, not just Emacs.  GCC, GDB,
Binutils, Coreutils, Bash, Diffutils, Grep, Texinfo, Gnulib, Guile,
Wget -- you name it.  They all require an assignment.  Even submitting
translations for messages of some program requires an assignment.

> Okay, maybe it's not an issue for you, because you're used to the 
> mailing list, as well as to replies to assignment form inqueries.
> 
> But it is an issue for an arbitrary user who wants the form.
> 
> First of: there's no requirement for a contributor to be subscribed 
> here, since patches go to debbugs site anyway. And a user may not know 
> how to use a mailing list: does one have to subscribe? How to 
> subscribe? What to do with dozens of mails from the list every day? 
> Nowadays you can't reasonably expect arbitrary peoples to know how MLs 
> work.
> 
> Second: a user may not be a native speaker, so composing a mail may 
> take time for that alone reason. You can't expect a contributor to be a 
> good speaker either, because they could be e.g. just a student who 
> wants to improve the app they're using as part of their paper.
> 
> Third: sending to a -devel ML means asking real developers. This may be 
> an overwhelming thought, making one to try to avoid that as much as 
> possible. I'm telling that from my own past experience: though right 
> now I'm comfortable (I work as a developer, I contributed to many 
> projects, I just got used to being around developers), but it wasn't 
> always true. Just 3-4 years ago I'd be really afraid, thinking "But 
> assignment form doesn't sound like a development question, am I sure 
> this is correct? Won't they make laugh of me?".
> 
> Fourth: sending to an ML means there's a bunch of people, and everyone 
> gonna see your mail. If you have social communication problems, for 
> example sociophobia, this is a demotivational factor.
> 
> Fifth: asking specifically for copyright assignment on ML feels like 
> yelling "look everyone, I'm gonna contribute to Emacs!", whereas one 
> may not even be sure about usefulness of planned contributions. One may 
> just have some thoughts for improvements, but they may not pan out for 
> one reason or another. I think this may demotivate anyone, doubly so if 
> one has social communication problems.
> 
> And don't forget that the factors can be combined! Whereas the fix is 
> dead easy: just make it clear how to get the form and instructions 
> without any interaction.

With the relevant information now explicitly spelled in CONTRIBUTE, I
think these issues are more-or-less solved now.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

On Пт, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:00, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>  Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 02:49:09 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  > The only way I can understand this particular aspect of the issue 
>> is
>>  > by assuming that people don't read the section in the Emacs manual
>>  > where this is described, the one you quoted in your email, because
>>  > that section explicitly tells to ask on emacs-devel.
>> 
>>  Not really. The section I quoted tells to ask any questions on
>>  emacs-devel, but not to ask for the form/instructions in there.
> 
> I admit I don't understand this logic.  You are told to ask _anything_
> about the assignment process on this list, including for how to start
> the process:
> 
>      Copyright assignment is a simple process.  Residents of some
>   countries can do it entirely electronically.  We can help you get
>   started, and answer any questions you may have (or point you to the
>   people with the answers), at the <emacs-devel@gnu.org> mailing list.
> 
> So why would someone think that asking about the form is
> inappropriate?

The logic is: this whole page is a documentation about the assignment, 
it's even titled accordingly. So somewhere it should have all the gory 
details. But there's none.

And then there's a suggestion to ask any question on emacs-devel. Sure, 
absence of steps for getting assignment implies you have one; but at 
the same time the fact that you're reading the Emacs documentation on 
getting assignment implies that you shouldn't have *this specific* 
question, because sure it's documented here. So you reading it over and 
over, you look at other places, you query the internet… This makes 
one feel silly, and asking on emacs-devel becomes sort of last resort.

>>  Although GNU Emacs indeed are not the source for form, however it is
>>  Emacs that has the mandatory requirement for the assignment.
> 
> No, every GNU project has this requirement, not just Emacs.  GCC, GDB,
> Binutils, Coreutils, Bash, Diffutils, Grep, Texinfo, Gnulib, Guile,
> Wget -- you name it.  They all require an assignment.  Even submitting
> translations for messages of some program requires an assignment.
> 
>>  Okay, maybe it's not an issue for you, because you're used to the
>>  mailing list, as well as to replies to assignment form inqueries.
>> 
>>  But it is an issue for an arbitrary user who wants the form.
>> 
>>  First of: there's no requirement for a contributor to be subscribed
>>  here, since patches go to debbugs site anyway. And a user may not 
>> know
>>  how to use a mailing list: does one have to subscribe? How to
>>  subscribe? What to do with dozens of mails from the list every day?
>>  Nowadays you can't reasonably expect arbitrary peoples to know how 
>> MLs
>>  work.
>> 
>>  Second: a user may not be a native speaker, so composing a mail may
>>  take time for that alone reason. You can't expect a contributor to 
>> be a
>>  good speaker either, because they could be e.g. just a student who
>>  wants to improve the app they're using as part of their paper.
>> 
>>  Third: sending to a -devel ML means asking real developers. This 
>> may be
>>  an overwhelming thought, making one to try to avoid that as much as
>>  possible. I'm telling that from my own past experience: though right
>>  now I'm comfortable (I work as a developer, I contributed to many
>>  projects, I just got used to being around developers), but it wasn't
>>  always true. Just 3-4 years ago I'd be really afraid, thinking "But
>>  assignment form doesn't sound like a development question, am I sure
>>  this is correct? Won't they make laugh of me?".
>> 
>>  Fourth: sending to an ML means there's a bunch of people, and 
>> everyone
>>  gonna see your mail. If you have social communication problems, for
>>  example sociophobia, this is a demotivational factor.
>> 
>>  Fifth: asking specifically for copyright assignment on ML feels like
>>  yelling "look everyone, I'm gonna contribute to Emacs!", whereas one
>>  may not even be sure about usefulness of planned contributions. One 
>> may
>>  just have some thoughts for improvements, but they may not pan out 
>> for
>>  one reason or another. I think this may demotivate anyone, doubly 
>> so if
>>  one has social communication problems.
>> 
>>  And don't forget that the factors can be combined! Whereas the fix 
>> is
>>  dead easy: just make it clear how to get the form and instructions
>>  without any interaction.
> 
> With the relevant information now explicitly spelled in CONTRIBUTE, I
> think these issues are more-or-less solved now.

Thank you! Btw, I just looked at log for CONTRIBUTE 
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/log/CONTRIBUTE I don't seem 
to see anything new. Are they perhaps on review?

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:57:24 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > With the relevant information now explicitly spelled in CONTRIBUTE, I
> > think these issues are more-or-less solved now.
> 
> Thank you! Btw, I just looked at log for CONTRIBUTE 
> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/log/CONTRIBUTE I don't seem 
> to see anything new. Are they perhaps on review?

Crystal ball says you looked at the wrong branch.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

On Пт, Apr 12, 2019 at 12:33, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>  Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:57:24 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  > With the relevant information now explicitly spelled in 
>> CONTRIBUTE, I
>>  > think these issues are more-or-less solved now.
>> 
>>  Thank you! Btw, I just looked at log for CONTRIBUTE
>>  http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/log/CONTRIBUTE I don't 
>> seem
>>  to see anything new. Are they perhaps on review?
> 
> Crystal ball says you looked at the wrong branch.

Hmm, I assume webinteraface shows master by default, so you didn't 
commit there. Why?

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:42:41 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > Crystal ball says you looked at the wrong branch.
> 
> Hmm, I assume webinteraface shows master by default, so you didn't 
> commit there. Why?

Because this change needs to be in Emacs 26.2 as well.  It's in
CONTRIBUTE: changes that are relevant to the release branch should be
pushed there, and they will get merged to master soon after.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Amin Bandali]

Minor nit:

On 2019-04-12 10:00 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
[...]
> No, every GNU project has this requirement, not just Emacs.

As far as I can tell this is false; see [1].

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Copyright-Papers.html

> GCC, GDB, Binutils, Coreutils, Bash, Diffutils, Grep, Texinfo, Gnulib,
> Guile, Wget -- you name it.  They all require an assignment.  Even
> submitting translations for messages of some program requires an
> assignment.

Indeed, these are examples of projects requiring an assignment—and
that’s generally the norm—but not all GNU projects do, and it’s
ultimately up to the author(s) of the package to decide.  For instance,
GNU Guix doesn’t require contributors to assign copyright to the FSF.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Phillip Lord]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/tree/doc/Copyright/
>
> That's not a web form.


Indeed not. I would ask for slightly more than a webform
though. Something which shows the current status of the copyright
assignment and which allows the maintainers to see clearly who has done
which steps. Having a list of aliases that people use would also be
nice, since you often only have git IDs or email addressed to work out
who has contributed to a particular project. I realise that this needs
to be balanced against the right to privacy for developers, of course.

It would also be nice to have something that showed the current status
of peoples copyright assignment -- currently, it is very hard to know if
a assignment has run out, or if the person has moved employer.

I think this is a significant problem as it stands; I managed to get the
copyright assignment done for the 40 developers on dash.el using email
threads and a local org file. But I have failed to update it because of
new developers coming on stream. I wouldn't even begin to think about
starting the process for a project like magit (250 developers).

There are around 1.2k developers who have contributed to MELPA (which is
a good lower bound for the number of somewhat current Emacs-lisp
developers), or 1.8k developers in AUTHORS (which is a good lower bound
for the number of Emacs-lisp developers in all history), or 1.8k who
have contributed to an MELPA package at all (which is another good lower
bound for emacs-lisp developers).

It's a big number. A better system would be worthwhile.

Phil

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Stefan Monnier]

> Indeed not. I would ask for slightly more than a webform
> though. Something which shows the current status of the copyright
> assignment and which allows the maintainers to see clearly who has done
> which steps.

I'd love to have that as well, but I'd rather first ask for the minimum
first step and later ask for the rest, otherwise I'm afraid we'll never
get past the first step.


        Stefan

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk>
> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:13:08 +0100
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> 
> There are around 1.2k developers who have contributed to MELPA (which is
> a good lower bound for the number of somewhat current Emacs-lisp
> developers), or 1.8k developers in AUTHORS (which is a good lower bound
> for the number of Emacs-lisp developers in all history), or 1.8k who
> have contributed to an MELPA package at all (which is another good lower
> bound for emacs-lisp developers).
> 
> It's a big number. A better system would be worthwhile.

If it's possible, I certainly would welcome a more versatile and
dynamic system for that.  But this is something the FSF should do, not
the Emacs project.  We are just one customer of that system.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Phillip Lord]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

>> Indeed not. I would ask for slightly more than a webform
>> though. Something which shows the current status of the copyright
>> assignment and which allows the maintainers to see clearly who has done
>> which steps.
>
> I'd love to have that as well, but I'd rather first ask for the minimum
> first step and later ask for the rest, otherwise I'm afraid we'll never
> get past the first step.


Yes, I understand that. But having a final vision in mind would be not
bad thing. It's even possible it could come off the shelf; a ticket
system, or something build over the top of git, for instance.

Phil

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

В Пт, апр 12, 2019 at 15:33, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> 
написал:
>>  Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:42:41 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  > Crystal ball says you looked at the wrong branch.
>> 
>>  Hmm, I assume webinteraface shows master by default, so you didn't
>>  commit there. Why?
> 
> Because this change needs to be in Emacs 26.2 as well.  It's in
> CONTRIBUTE: changes that are relevant to the release branch should be
> pushed there, and they will get merged to master soon after.

I took a look, thank you.

I wonder, per discussion above, can a similar update be applied here 
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Copyright-Assignment.html#Copyright-Assignment 
?

For example, sentence

	We can help you get started, and answer any questions you may have (or 
point you to the people with the answers), at the emacs-devel@gnu.org 
mailing list.

May be changed to

	For the necessary form together with the instructions to fill and 
email it ask at the emacs-devel@gnu.org mailing list. We can help you 
get started, and answer any questions you may have (or point you to the 
people with the answers).

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 00:04:58 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> I wonder, per discussion above, can a similar update be applied here 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Copyright-Assignment.html#Copyright-Assignment 
> ?

OK, I added a reference to the form there, thanks.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

В Вт, апр 16, 2019 at 18:34, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> 
написал:
>>  Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 00:04:58 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  I wonder, per discussion above, can a similar update be applied here
>>  
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Copyright-Assignment.html#Copyright-Assignment
>>  ?
> 
> OK, I added a reference to the form there, thanks.

Hmm, sorry, I must be blind, but I don't see the reference to the form 
nor a statement that instructions/form can be acquired here.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:03:51 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > OK, I added a reference to the form there, thanks.
> 
> Hmm, sorry, I must be blind, but I don't see the reference to the form 
> nor a statement that instructions/form can be acquired here.

What do you see?

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

В Вт, апр 16, 2019 at 21:28, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> 
написал:
>>  Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:03:51 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  > OK, I added a reference to the form there, thanks.
>> 
>>  Hmm, sorry, I must be blind, but I don't see the reference to the 
>> form
>>  nor a statement that instructions/form can be acquired here.
> 
> What do you see?

There are 3 references: to main page of fsf site, to emacs-devel, and 
to another GNU page with an explanation why assignment is required 
(well, at least link title says that it should be on that page).

The sentence I advised to change is exactly the same. Not sure about 
the rest of the text, but I don't see anything similar to the 
"reference" or the advice, and there's no "instruction" and "form" 
words anywhere.

Please, check it yourself, I think you just forgot to save the changes.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:55:09 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> Please, check it yourself, I think you just forgot to save the changes.

I didn't forget.  Look at commit 23ccba0.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

В Вт, апр 16, 2019 at 22:11, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> 
написал:
>>  Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:55:09 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  Please, check it yourself, I think you just forgot to save the 
>> changes.
> 
> I didn't forget.  Look at commit 23ccba0.

Ah, thank you. Probably the site simply didn't update their webpage.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:18:09 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > I didn't forget.  Look at commit 23ccba0.
> 
> Ah, thank you. Probably the site simply didn't update their webpage.

Are you looking at the right branch?

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Konstantin Kharlamov]

В Вт, апр 16, 2019 at 22:24, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> 
написал:
>>  Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:18:09 +0300
>>  From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
>>  Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
>> 
>>  > I didn't forget.  Look at commit 23ccba0.
>> 
>>  Ah, thank you. Probably the site simply didn't update their webpage.
> 
> Are you looking at the right branch?

I was looking at this page 
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Copyright-Assignment.html#Copyright-Assignment 
it wasn't updated yet, e.g. if you search for "form" word you won't 
find it.

Re: Documenting FSF copyright assignment process

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:29:11 +0300
> From: Konstantin Kharlamov <hi-angel@yandex.ru>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > Are you looking at the right branch?
> 
> I was looking at this page 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Copyright-Assignment.html#Copyright-Assignment 
> it wasn't updated yet, e.g. if you search for "form" word you won't 
> find it.

The manual is only updated when a new Emacs release appears.  It has
nothing to do with development changes.