From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 21:11:58 +0300 Message-ID: <83pnbjmuxd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <3bd09dca-dcdc-7569-e5fb-f6b53397af9d@yandex.ru> <83pnbjokdt.fsf@gnu.org> <2b9f91bb-e233-e24b-27d3-384dd66c4e8d@yandex.ru> <83sggfmwig.fsf@gnu.org> <34bf7b60-6959-47e5-e27c-d00627ab1782@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="15855"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: yandros@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, joaotavora@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 20:12:48 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfaB-0003yK-CQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 20:12:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49488 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfaA-0003s0-E7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:12:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35918) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfZd-0003O0-6M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:12:13 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36975) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfZb-00052l-PS; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:12:11 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2817 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfZU-00058t-AN; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:12:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: <34bf7b60-6959-47e5-e27c-d00627ab1782@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Mon, 4 May 2020 20:52:15 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248892 Archived-At: > Cc: yandros@gmail.com, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 20:52:15 +0300 > > On 04.05.2020 20:37, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> But changing something that exists, especially when it had existed for a > >> while, is a long, arduous journey with rare chance of success, IME. > > > > It's longer, but not by a long shot. > > Of many discussion about changing default behavior that I've seen, the > vast majority have failed. Then you only remember the ones that led to nothing because we didn't do anything but talk. > > A recent example: the :extend > > face attribute. > > It's an interesting counter-example. First, it did little to change the > actual functionality, just the looks. The reaction to this "little change" could have fooled me. > Second, there were no noticeable consensus, inside or outside the > core, that the new behavior is better Not true. There was complete consensus among those who discussed the feature before it went into implementation. > (I've mostly seen dissenting feedback, but the split is probably more > like 50/50). But apparently you liked it well enough because it made > Emacs's behavior more compatible with other software _you_ were familiar > with, that even breaking the expectations of a lot of our users, or > having to force all theme authors to update their themes (until I came > along with a fix) wasn't price too high. So what is the lesson you suggest to take out of this example, in the context of "adapting"?