From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Development Speed Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 16:39:40 +0200 Message-ID: <83pmpqyqc3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87v8zk5d7t.fsf@yahoo.com> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15360"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 21 15:54:52 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mzgXT-0003o7-34 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:54:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50504 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzgXS-00033R-2o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 09:54:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35658) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzgIv-0003yd-IN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 09:39:49 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=51368 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzgIl-0003Ca-Vp; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 09:39:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=4SXFfxClC2IgTFC5qpMOA8wRJgzZ2dWaN6yBBIMTVNI=; b=DRas15wg7QGC aVdmQP5mi6YzuLN+/7Mc6TWTIfh4bDp/eWAhjMODnkr0WLMzWBJZNJ8+DWQbixP/SPOX4yOHbtrmH cwjEs1iVqWNCU/c1rLUpOvVCe/fnFTRvQoFGttWS+w96K8z8DLaEVHsTcqRc60ORfnLV6wVcUx+I5 fHeF+5a8pZIVeKuoFMDri75qjaF0Ph3+I969GNDLmkvhJrMjYQXCr6yPhKusex/P35eH10bUHtkjh pScqt4eGB9WrFNP/C2+laX1DwQZmDwJjtkNpx9dObpz2olUFDKWAvWnrgggbx6bwXrAAyL5GRV0N/ rt13GG7/v4LvqdR6dFiEcA==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2691 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzgIl-0005G6-OF; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 09:39:40 -0500 In-Reply-To: (emacs-devel@gnu.org) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:282592 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 11:25:06 +0100 (CET) > From: xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." > Please take a look at Neovim, there is no comparison. Neovim is very young. Emacs is being developed 4 times as long as Neovim. Let's talk when Neovim is comparably old (if it's still around at that time). > Also the entanglement of TUI and GUI; there is no clear separation without > breaking a lot of lisp code. For example trying to make a minibuffer frame on TUI > just returns nil, as they use the same functions. This is a feature: Lisp programs almost never need to know whether they run on text-mode or GUI displays. If a Lisp program had to ask on every step whether the display is TTY or GUI, the application could would be much more complex and hard to read and maintain. It used to be that way at some distant past, but we deliberately implemented most of the GUI features on TTYs: multiple frames, colors (with transparent translation of X colors), mouse support, menus and dialogs -- in order to eliminate most of the differences on the Lisp level. I'm amazed that you think this is a disadvantage in Emacs. > > I regularly see people building Emacs with a C99 compiler, > > and even more people building with a C11 compiler. We didn't yet move to C11, we require C99. > > There is no "excuse" needed to not drop older language standards, when > > the new one is not even universally available. > > Of course the targeting a platform without support is a valid reason but > making GNU/Linux or Windows users suffer the deficiencies of a platform > that cannot compile C11 in this day and age is somewhat cruel IMO. We are not talking about platforms, we are talking about GNU/Linux systems that still use old GCC versions. There are quite a lot of those. Not everyone runs the latest alpha of the Linux kernel with the latest snapshot of GCC. One of the worst "surprises" when building a new version of a package is to find out it no longer supports your compiler/linker/libraries, because that's a beginning of a long journey down the rabbit hole of upgrading your entire system, and finally probably the hardware as well. There's nothing nastier software developers can do to their users than being the tail that wags the dog. I'm very happy to say that Emacs was never like that, and I hope it will never change in this regard.