From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:47:53 +0300 Message-ID: <83pm818cx2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com> <83wn2h5825.fsf@gnu.org> <87wn2gkhzr.fsf@posteo.net> <83cz485oxi.fsf@gnu.org> <87leiwdyff.fsf@posteo.net> <834jpk5hih.fsf@gnu.org> <871qkom3fj.fsf@posteo.net> <83mt3b4yfc.fsf@gnu.org> <87edonlsxi.fsf@posteo.net> <83jzyf4vzb.fsf@gnu.org> <871qknllkj.fsf@posteo.net> <83fs934pjf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wn2fk47y.fsf@posteo.net> <83sfd2g2ek.fsf@gnu.org> <875y9yfxrr.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1muefks.fsf@gmail.com> <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org> <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev> <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org> <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev> <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33457"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 18 16:48:47 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pomdS-0008YE-Lq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 16:48:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pomcV-0007E9-E9; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:47:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pomcU-0007Dy-JB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:47:46 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pomcU-0007mW-54; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:47:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=w52Jk0t758Rh7uemRcPYzrBH8QXL69YJ8/tdqSEkMZM=; b=LerwhJnRTE416z2khrfI vZ7uBiqnGJHZ85siPlYMimjOhmJrzb27jf3k0EPrlbZA8zFFiZ8D/bvDFo5R0exGGxrW93zTifKEa POGXldpDziyezg8yXp/d8YHe/0fQlnbfHSgOBLPLG8PVwS8HwbDJR3K+Cl9+3VjmUm4QtxV9uY7R+ lijZ5qbBEGVggcEV0ssmgpS4trz7dhLQtwHwjRQyWrbR0bu9MwaC/QthzDbquD9jfEV/n2oOttc/Z KcDAazdoXSs9C8C0wdV4rD9yqdNaXTbh6FEslq+5Zwa/CRWvV3Dv994b4ozb9DDk45OhhocSGY5Dw VaJnetp4YV03og==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pomcT-0002v5-KN; Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:47:45 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Tue, 18 Apr 2023 15:02:01 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305410 Archived-At: > From: João Távora > Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 15:02:01 +0100 > Cc: Dmitry Gutov , emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 1:56 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > without by side effect installing a newer and potentially less stable > > ElDoc. (I also am surprised that change is a must for Eglot 1.15.) > > It's not a "must". Eglot can work without it. The problem happens in > ElDoc and doesn't affect its interface. Then what Dmitry said about Eglot 1.15 being dependent on that change in ElDoc is not relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether Eglot 1.15 could be bundled with Emacs 29.1. > But Eglot relies on ElDoc as a whole. In general you can't expect > to have new features in Eglot without some advancing of the > infrastructure that Eglot depends on. Understood. My point is that if you want Eglot users to be able to upgrade to a newer versions, you need to have compatibility layers, to avoid the need to upgrade too many other packages, which might hamper stability. Otherwise, we cannot in good faith recommend that users of stable Emacs update their core packages without a second thought. > So there _isn't_ a way to partially upgrade a package and not its > dependencies. Updating a package P1 should require update of as few packages P2...Pn as possible. Ideally, none at all. Users should be able to decide whether they want or don't want to update any single package without also needing to decide whether they are okay with updating half a dozen of others. This should be our goal, because otherwise updating a package will be unsafe if you use any Emacs except master (and thus don't care much about stability anyway). > > We should seriously ponder these aspects, and the sooner the better. > > I don't actually think there is any actual problem present if > we all agree (as you seem to) with Dmitry's preposition that > "there shouldn't be a single set of criteria governing core > packages". Then we can teach Emacs's upgrade mechanisms to > deal with each set differently, carefully examining the > requirements for each set. Sure, but we need to have these sets, actually. Right now, we don't, not for every core package out there anyway. > I'd like you, if possible, to also respond (here, if you prefer) to the > points I raised in my own reply to Dmitry's message you're replying > to. This is the message;: > > https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=62720#529 I didn't respond because I had nothing to say to that which I didn't already say in response to Dmitry's message.