From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:05:53 +0300 Message-ID: <83o9d5q1bi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536563442 354 195.159.176.226 (10 Sep 2018 07:10:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 07:10:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: hw@adminart.net, spacibba@aol.com, npostavs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Joost Kremers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 10 09:10:37 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzGLB-0008NY-UI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 09:10:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50092 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzGNH-0006nl-Pl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 03:12:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60481) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzGLo-0006aY-G2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 03:11:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzGGa-0005HA-RJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 03:05:54 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59354) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzGGZ-0005GO-Rw; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 03:05:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1190 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fzGGZ-0004mE-Jc; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 03:05:47 -0400 In-reply-to: <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> (message from Joost Kremers on Sun, 09 Sep 2018 22:39:54 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229594 Archived-At: > From: Joost Kremers > Cc: Noam Postavsky , hw@adminart.net, spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 22:39:54 +0200 > > what `delete-selection-mode` does is standard behaviour in most > software out there and most new users will take it for granted The _only_ problem I personally have with delete-selection-mode is that it also replaces the region created by the likes of "C-x C-x", something that "most software out there" does not and cannot do. If we were to change delete-selection-mode to replace only highlighted text created by mouse selections or by shift-selections, I think we could then enable it by default without much resistance, because typing a character or DEL after explicitly selecting text is many orders of magnitude less probable to be a mistake than when we make the region active by other means. I suspect that making the above happen would need to introduce a special kind of region, though. But if we want to present a UI and provide a UX similar to other editors, I don't see any other way. I think the conclusion from the transient-mark-mode experiment is that it is not up to the job we hoped it will do, due to conflicting requirements that cannot be reconciled by reasonably reliable heuristics. The traditional Emacs region cannot support delete-selection-mode and its traditional uses at the same time.