From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 21:57:57 +0300 Message-ID: <83o8r3mssq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <3bd09dca-dcdc-7569-e5fb-f6b53397af9d@yandex.ru> <83pnbjokdt.fsf@gnu.org> <2b9f91bb-e233-e24b-27d3-384dd66c4e8d@yandex.ru> <83sggfmwig.fsf@gnu.org> <34bf7b60-6959-47e5-e27c-d00627ab1782@yandex.ru> <83pnbjmuxd.fsf@gnu.org> <5f557d99-3f3d-a2cc-8d46-da05c2c53c83@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="93136"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: yandros@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, joaotavora@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 20:58:46 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVgIf-000O6Q-D2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 20:58:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50126 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVgIe-0008Gs-58 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:58:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42448) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVgIE-0007rk-71 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:58:18 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVgID-00008Z-Dp; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:58:17 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1627 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jVgI0-0004Iz-16; Mon, 04 May 2020 14:58:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5f557d99-3f3d-a2cc-8d46-da05c2c53c83@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Mon, 4 May 2020 21:44:58 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248903 Archived-At: > Cc: yandros@gmail.com, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 21:44:58 +0300 > > > The reaction to this "little change" could have fooled me. > > In your opinion at the time it was little, IIRC. One of the reasons it > got in, I guess. No, I didn't think it was little. > >> Second, there were no noticeable consensus, inside or outside the > >> core, that the new behavior is better > > > > Not true. There was complete consensus among those who discussed the > > feature before it went into implementation. > > Among the 2-3 people who participated in the highly technical > bug-report/discussion about the display engine? Please be serious. That > doesn't reflect the opinions even across emacs-devel, much less the > community at large. Those were all the people who participated in the discussion. Everyone who cared. > And once we found out the backward compatibility problem, and all the > associated details, there was still one solution available: revert. > That's what we usually do when we don't manage to fix a regression > before a release, don't we? Except that wasn't a regression. > > So what is the lesson you suggest to take out of this example, in the > > context of "adapting"? > > Maybe that backward compatibility is not as important as some people > like to claim? Other lessons would be less kind to type out. > > In any case, I don't see that particular change affecting the experience > of new Emacs users much one way or another (as long as all the themes > work). Thus it's not a great example of Emacs "adapting" to contemporary > user expectations. Then I'm sorry to say it, but you have learned nothing from that event. Nothing useful, anyway. Too bad.