From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 17:05:46 +0200 Message-ID: <83o7g3ynjp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <83sf5fyx60.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24744"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acm@muc.de, dmitry@gutov.dev, bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 16:06:50 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r16cM-0006Eu-DP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 16:06:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r16bW-0004RI-E2; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:05:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r16bU-0004QF-JI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:05:56 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r16bT-00060X-1c; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:05:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=S0CupxgAyeFxhAzxxNUjnq5TO5BlOP0ME01ILXwUiWM=; b=n1lrswITfeOpK2xGFWNA K72ts+RBrHSSG9EIvi/KKnadoqkWU1UQgdfaqF2nwF/INTZPbI5ZCeGATiGmsoAaqFBay6Mji0W6h 07A5zDvGCj+vlwYtF5gySlrzNvRjmw2nwbbMhab2X9pwAqFbMjhRqgPyuMOtya12i18GqedH6cnXt X5g/CV5wb90QzrH9nIbuia9P8CEcF1Hq4oYfaiP5PscvP3fC3ifH0WnjwnZSH3EPp+tH8wKnCtl1S Mc4BhQB9MbGFp5sfThSHrqfup4yP7zU1Xpy9eeoSo4yTpb9gEC9OmrVZeZddAOtlnKc85OtY8U07g ruwTRx8n4bGaGw==; In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Thu, 9 Nov 2023 12:34:09 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312416 Archived-At: > From: João Távora > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 12:34:09 +0000 > Cc: acm@muc.de, dmitry@gutov.dev, bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2023 at 11:38 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > > From: João Távora > > > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 11:06:02 +0000 > > > Cc: Dmitry Gutov , > > > Björn Bidar , > > > emacs-devel > > > > > > So I propose we let programmers use their judgement. > > > > That's fair enough, provided that those same programmers step up to > > become the Emacs maintainers, and thus share the burden to at least > > some extent. Especially those of them who consider witty sarcasm a > > useful style in a discussion like this one. > > Did you read the rest of the paragraph from which you extracted that > one line? You should by now know me well enough to realize that I read everything here. However, I respond only to the parts where I have something useful and non-trivial to say. > Also, I would hope this is not a suggestion that I don't step to share the > burden of maintaining things? I do, certainly for all the features that I > have I added to core in the past 10 years and frequently also to parts > of the code those features interact with. Do you often have to fix bugs in > flymake.el, elec-pair.el, icomplete.el, eldoc.el, jsonrpc.el, etc... > that I didn't care to take a look at in a reasonable time frame? More > importantly, to what extent are you and others significantly or often > hindered by the style I use there? I said nothing about your style. Neither do I doubt that you know your own code very well. We all know our own code well. I'm asking you not to judge the burden of the maintainers in maintaining code they didn't write nor even see, until you get to our place and do it for a while. Only then you will be able to realize the role of obscure programming style and use of unfamiliar syntax in making the job harder than it has to be. > The problem of maintaining other people's code (which btw is 95% > of all my professional experience) is not about programming techniques > or even languages at all, it's about domain knowledge. It is both. In particular, when you need to understand why some code fragment misbehaves, you need to understand the implementation and what it intends to do, not only why.