From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What improvements would be truly useful? Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:56:14 +0200 Message-ID: <83muzfu5dd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87inaiss6l.fsf@web.de> <6FCF6ACA-4F29-4B6B-BE9D-D7130C6E9495@gnu.org> <87fu5moe4c.fsf@web.de> <877eqyocro.fsf@web.de> <83zi3uz4nb.fsf@gnu.org> <0b1dd3fa-e0b0-ed20-a256-dd92d1c1826f@dancol.org> <8bc3c4c7-dfc7-987a-95e7-bd309e2326c6@cs.ucla.edu> <03118DC0-39DA-4AB5-980E-A33809B9A5EE@raeburn.org> <83sh9es8jw.fsf@gnu.org> <2cdaa88f-f31e-e05c-a940-d83e25c9c167@dancol.org> <87muzlt1mr.fsf@mbork.pl> <83k1upq70l.fsf@gnu.org> <87woyl8qm7.fsf@russet.org.uk> <834llpwe1u.fsf@gnu.org> <87a7vf2a2h.fsf@russet.org.uk> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1520708087 28824 195.159.176.226 (10 Mar 2018 18:54:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 18:54:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, raeburn@raeburn.org, dancol@dancol.org, rostislav.svoboda@gmail.com To: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 10 19:54:43 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eujdi-0007KJ-KK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 19:54:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51647 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eujfj-0000uR-Ob for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 13:56:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54203) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eujfc-0000ty-UA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 13:56:41 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eujfb-0006hg-S5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 13:56:40 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58935) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eujfL-0006b1-DB; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 13:56:23 -0500 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3900 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eujfD-0006Sp-Fh; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 13:56:15 -0500 In-reply-to: <87a7vf2a2h.fsf@russet.org.uk> (phillip.lord@russet.org.uk) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:223590 Archived-At: > From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) > Cc: mbork@mbork.pl, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, raeburn@raeburn.org, dancol@dancol.org, rostislav.svoboda@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:02:14 +0000 > > >> No. But, then Word or LibreOffice are not WYSIWYG either. > > > > This is just a minor semantic issue: let's assume for the purposes of > > the current discussion that the definition of a WYSIWYG word processor > > is what the Office word processors do. > > I think it is not. Like I said, it's a matter of definition. And I just provided mine (and I think also Richard's). > My understanding of, for indirect buffers, are that they share text and > text properties. So you cannot put a different visualisation over two > indirect buffers, if those visualisations use text properties, because > they will interfere with each other. It is not possible with text properties, but it's possible with overlays, which can be window-specific. > Similarly, the text that you seen on screen is pretty much what is in > the buffer. You can do things like put before or after strings in text > properties. But then this will be ignored by everything other than the > visualisation -- you can't search for them, for instance, because the > user level functions operate over the text not the visualisation of it. Since we mostly are talking indentations and typefaces, I don't understand why would we need to use before- or after-strings in this context. > And, finally, while Emacs does provide notifications of change to buffer > text both before and after, they are neither guaranteed to be paired nor > consistent. Nor is it apparent to the listening function when they will > not be paired or consistent; which is unfortunate as mostly they are. Why is that part of the issue? > So Emacs does not exactly have an MVC architecture -- it sort of has it. I think your notion of MVC is too specialized.