From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 15:29:24 +0300 Message-ID: <83msweu76j.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0lqoo5x.fsf@dataswamp.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15575"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 19 14:30:37 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qtSAf-0003sk-Bk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:30:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtS9f-0007kC-2G; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 08:29:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtS9d-0007i5-6N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 08:29:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtS9c-0005ob-6C; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 08:29:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=otnj6zAs2GSzxQvOsMPUmvO3+JFuA91st3OoWHm45pM=; b=F0cAa9VKfXzx 1s13/iIrPSgLH9/S9zIwU7738i1VNO0lHvb8IDCq/so5d11Mf8p4cCPHGfWzylm6D295WfJMjV8/z v5o3CVjl610nEMLWbrifPHUPUAMvpSVXo+f1+E7VmrnsemiqherUADmjseZ/D3vJ62JY7rkFjZh8A jarXtnbTigJWbTxqawxosdkRn+82w7ESbBJ8yRWx1bSfjhZtvfcOPYd5bcaJ4ZN/TCp/aSVEzJ0RI Cd0g/AvhYYFtFjxdwFkrtzjhpXABB/5+AkmNgbEpj2DHO9CzFG2FP5K4+sdLsaWk3MPQMb9hsRBgZ 5DQCMey4DOZuA5D1mgETkg==; In-Reply-To: <87r0lqoo5x.fsf@dataswamp.org> (message from Emanuel Berg on Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:19:06 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311590 Archived-At: > From: Emanuel Berg > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:19:06 +0200 > > The "levels" introduced in this discussion are, it would seem > > - files that are used by vanilla Emacs that use cl-lib > > - such files that use it at compile time > > - such files that use it a run time > > - such files that are loaded when Emacs is executed with no > arguments > > but - what is the difference? I think it is pretty clear that > cl-lib is used quite broadly, probably because people find > it useful. > > So what does it matter if it is "purged" from one or several > of these levels? What gain is there if that is achieved? It matters to us because we decided long ago to avoid loading cl-lib at runtime in vanilla Emacs. There are several good reasons: bloat, unnecessary namespace pollution, etc. But all this is not really relevant for the code that you (or any one of us) write for their own personal use, it is only relevant to code contributed to Emacs.