From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why does the tutorial talk about C-n/C-p etc? Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 21:03:07 +0200 Message-ID: <83lh5mdwus.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y49q64eg.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87wpp9dkux.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83twkbfofd.fsf@gnu.org> <838u1mfi7q.fsf@gnu.org> <83y49me19o.fsf@gnu.org> <56E5B472.1070002@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457895834 4811 80.91.229.3 (13 Mar 2016 19:03:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 19:03:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?windows-1252?Q?Cl=E9ment?= Pit--Claudel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 13 20:03:53 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1afBIt-0006gZ-29 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2016 20:03:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37244 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1afBIp-0005hI-6G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:03:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58474) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1afBIl-0005hD-G0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:03:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1afBIg-0003ai-GY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:03:43 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43343) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1afBIg-0003ae-Cu; Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4718 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1afBIf-000433-Ch; Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:03:38 -0400 In-reply-to: <56E5B472.1070002@gmail.com> (message from =?windows-1252?Q?C?= =?windows-1252?Q?l=E9ment?= Pit--Claudel on Sun, 13 Mar 2016 14:41:54 -0400) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201634 Archived-At: > From: Clément Pit--Claudel > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 14:41:54 -0400 > > Here are a few things that I struggled with when I started using Emacs (phrased in terms of concepts that I was already familiar with) > > * Opening and saving a file > * Copying (or cutting) and pasting > * Undoing, and in particular the notion of undoing an undo > * Using C-u as a prefix > * Searching (and replacing) > * The notion of major and minor modes > > Interestingly, the tutorial does cover all of this; but it also tried to train me to be efficient at things that I didn't care (like having me jump around the buffer, paging through things with C-v, etc): what I wanted was a five minutes introduction which would: > > * Give me enough to survive in Emacs with more or less the same productivity as I has in GEdit (which was pretty low) > * Teach me a few cool features so that I felt compelled to keep using Emacs > > Based on this, it would be easy to pick up more stuff along the way. > > Speaking of cool features, here are a few ones that are very simple to comprehend, but that I find very useful; I think the tutorial could expose them: > > * C-SPC C-SPC to mark a point > * C-u C-SPC to jump to a previously marked point > * C-w marking the following word during a search I see your point. But here's the problem: * The tutorial explicitly aims at making you more productive than you'd be in GEdit or Notepad, as high productivity is one of Emacs's string selling points * The set of "cool features" that users would like to be taught is highly variable from one user to another, and their superset is way too large for a tutorial The only practical solution to the dilemma is to have multiple tutorials. This is not ideal, either, because many newcomers will not know enough to choose the ones they want, but it's a step in the right direction (IMO). The only problem is to find volunteers who'd actually write such tutorials. > In addition, I think many people get attracted to Emacs for a particular programming language, so I like the suggestion of the tutorial branching up into various directions after exposing the basics. I actually think that a tutorial should demonstrate the common stuff, i.e. how the same commands do different things in each major mode. For the details that are specific to each mode users should read the respective manuals and doc strings, as describing them in a tutorial will make that tutorial be very much like the manual ;-) > One final idea: maybe the tutorial could showcase more of Emacs' fancy features? Like syntax highlighting, spell checking, image support, indentation, and similar things? Right now it's a plain text buffer in fundamental mode. Excellent ideas, but again: we need someone to step forward and actually do all that. Most of us are not good at writing such interactive documentation.