From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:55:30 +0300 Message-ID: <83lfmne9z1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8wXYP4GY9hwW-9mYv6_LGMETZ8Vz3Ob1Bec6yh6kPT7yxjTkxA3V6dXY4ELra9tYiJUxJmgXKSIEX4w8HFiPRoeGVSQHDSoBVy1voj1e3Qo=@protonmail.com> <833694f29y.fsf@gnu.org> <4amRIW9fznS6sa3th4xPABzua9LQDlNPeIFxVsGYdq_wsg4-Ea1l9sEP-T6QrnO5QMV3jhgrnAspk2mSIC7COlodqr04koAcIPYPLLmPHFM=@protonmail.com> <83imhzecc5.fsf@gnu.org> <83y2qvcjv6.fsf@gnu.org> <83k12ed20s.fsf@gnu.org> <83blnqctyj.fsf@gnu.org> <9341072a-cf53-9092-2211-aa97c946e5b1@yandex.ru> <838sinfygb.fsf@gnu.org> <16fad982-e95b-7df1-25d0-1c666a6f8120@gmail.com> <83tv1begq5.fsf@gnu.org> <525fe795-0716-a224-ded0-00e49548aa3d@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="127960"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 18:57:04 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIgJ-000XAu-P5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:57:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54456 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIgI-0005On-Sh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:57:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53038) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIf8-00040b-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:56:06 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33281) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIf8-0001Uz-IM; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:55:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4702 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIf7-0000ol-E6; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:55:49 -0400 In-Reply-To: <525fe795-0716-a224-ded0-00e49548aa3d@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:14:01 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247525 Archived-At: > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:14:01 +0300 > > On 22.04.2020 17:29, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> It should be enough to change the name of the icons on the toolbar. No need to take icons from GTK (if that means copying files into the Emacs repo). > > That would only help GTK users. > > Yes, indeed. But it's still probably the most popular toolkit among > GNU/Linux users. And the icons look the same, no matter what distribution are we talking about? Doesn't something depend also on the desktop that's in use, and perhaps also on the window manager? > > I thought we wanted to improve the > > Emacs appearance on more than just one toolkit, > > On e.g. Lucid all icons come from the same set, at least. We can improve > them as well (all together), but it's a fairly different task. > > Speaking of other platforms, I wonder if Windows and macOS also have > have standard sets of icons. "Standard" as in "subject to change without notice" each time the vendor decides to change the look-and-feel (which happens roughly every 2 to 3 years). And that's even before we solve the problem of showing those "standard" icons in Emacs -- e.g., on Windows it is customary to compile the icons into the binary, something that we cannot do and then distribute the binary from the GNU FTP site. > It would make our task easier (and the end result more native-looking) > if we could use a similar approach. I'm not sure I like this direction. It sounds like the opposite of having an Emacs that looks more or less the same on all major platforms. How will the users (and newbies at that, since we are talking about them primarily) be able to find their ways in Emacs, if the icons change with the desktop/platform, and every few years even on the same platform? E.g., you buy the Emacs manual printed a year or 2 ago, but the icons it shows are all different from what's on display. I don't even understand how will we be able to show the icons in our Info manual, if the images don't come with Emacs and are different on each platform/build. Do we really want to go in that direction? just to say we look "modern"? Something people should seriously think and make up their minds about before such decisions are made, I guess.