From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 15:26:10 +0300 Message-ID: <83lf4dyhel.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> <64ec57fc-4cd0-4e4a-1139-de1c3ddc8d82@yandex.ru> <83sfylykhx.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36458"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: philipk@posteo.net, danflscr@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, john@yates-sheets.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 03 14:27:44 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mM8IK-0009F1-23 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:27:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45160 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM8II-00056c-Ob for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:27:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35648) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM8H5-0002iZ-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:26:29 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38220) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM8H3-00013P-CK; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:26:25 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1276 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM8Gs-0006vu-C9; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:26:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Dmitry Gutov on Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:44 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273779 Archived-At: > Cc: philipk@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, john@yates-sheets.org, > danflscr@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:44 +0300 > > On 03.09.2021 14:19, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> Again you try to change any discussion of a change into an "addition". > >> Something that wouldn't change anything in the default behavior. > > > > Because I think that's a much better way forward, in the long run. > > But if you want to insist on changing the defaults without the opt-in > > changes first, I guess we will be having this discussion many times in > > the future. > > That is just side-stepping the question. Which question? We are, I hope, interested mainly in making Emacs evolve and adapt to the changing times and preferences. I consider the way of introducing changes as optional first to be a better way towards that goal, including the goal to change the defaults. And I explained in so many words why and how. How is that side-stepping the issue at hand? > > You tried convincing in this before, and you failed. > > That discussion is a great example of the problems I wrote about in this > thread: we don't pay any attention to polls, hard statistics, articles > and user posts (of which I produced plenty). > > A few folks say "I don't like", and that's the end of it. Show me a project where things are different, where the lead developers cannot say "I don't like" (with arguments, which you forget to mention, or prefer to dismiss or disregard, but they are still there), and that's it. This is how Free Software projects are being developed, at least IME. Emacs is not an outlier, it's right there in the mainstream. > > IME, at least on > > my daytime job, source code produced by people these days with popular > > IDEs (not Emacs) includes TABs. > > Does it include tabs in the same fashion as what is produced by Emacs? > Which actually mixes tabs and spaces. Why does it matter? If we'd make the default use only TABs, would you agree then? > > So at least my experience disagrees > > with yours. Which might explain why this change didn't happen. > > I wasn't just listing my experience. Neither was I. Anyone who'd look at the output of those IDEs will see it, you don't need my "experience" to do that. It's a fact. > > Someone suggested to have "themes" in Emacs which could change the > > defaults of many settings in one simple command. Why not invest the > > energy we waste in these endless discussions in making that happen? > > It at least would make the changes easier for newbies, if nothing > > else. > > A few reasons. I don't really want to make Emacs more complex than it > is. I usually strive to make the existing workflows simpler. There are > only so many hours in a day. > > Further: what kind of theme would include indent-tabs-mode set to nil? A > theme called 'Sane Defaults'? Then I guess you won't be working on this any time soon. Which is perfectly okay; I hope someone else will. > The users would need to find out about it somehow and then enable > anyway, so what would make it different from having a custom option > called indent-tabs-mode, which we have already? The difference is that you need to choose among a small number of themes, instead of among many dozens of individual options. It makes the customization simpler.