From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:52:16 +0200 Message-ID: <83leoxfusf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <978489cd-efda-56c6-5a3f-681e10e64378@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27405"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 30 11:53:42 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1op5wj-00070X-IM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:53:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op5vw-0008Bh-Dg; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 06:52:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op5vg-0008B4-MM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 06:52:36 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op5ve-0001K3-Tp; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 06:52:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=25jmw+7xvBRIYA8p5Vq9V26vWgLotFH8tIxOugtldEU=; b=a6liaG34CmiHVw5+OZ/9 ctMMHYd13hbvDaZJDy/0XAIpitqTbOEztqwh1JNFyyVgu0gz4YFOh7SPlWEuWjxOkx1WuUEds8eih nqbPmzkxL2OlFTy9pcrmq92QJ5COExafYh0KGMYmgVqiEjGw6xerIC1txKNob0uLUw0CL1qvcyPzB gNUZ4oBALi9wbqfRtlMAvDVqzl0gwI63OunSXxKWhMvmy+vLtxkVlA0t1AnO2OT6JAxjE3ML1mtn8 5vfQ5STbF9u3fecAWsptAnoomF7Kki6zQnLXOs2D1vjRCxtonK9NaSCrasWMmC1eD7Z8ceLfdGau0 APs4BPF3kALTCA==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op5ve-0007H3-9j; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 06:52:34 -0400 In-Reply-To: <978489cd-efda-56c6-5a3f-681e10e64378@gmail.com> (message from Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= on Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:26:45 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298801 Archived-At: > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:26:45 +0100 > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Gerd Möllmann > > I was asking specifically about shorthands wrt to their use as a module > replacement, and I think tomas replied in that context. The shorthands were added for a specific purpose that should be clear from those discussions. It can also be used as a "poor-man's packaging system", and some contend that it is more than enough for that purpose. But that's not why we added it, and I don't necessarily agree with the opinions which consider shorthands to be a basis for Emacs package system, let alone a good one. Moreover, from my POV, the jury is still out on the question of whether we at all need packages in Emacs. "Programming in the large" doesn't sound very relevant to how Emacs Lisp is used. It is not a GP language for writing programs, it is a language for writing Emacs applications. The largest Emacs Lisp applications -- Gnus and Org -- are nowhere near the bar which I'd consider to be "programming in the large". I may change my mind, of course, but I didn't yet see any cogent explanation of why we would need packages in Emacs. People just tend to consider it self-evident, like some axiom. (And if you or someone want to start a discussion of that, please change the Subject.) Thanks.