From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: ASCII-only startup message? Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:56:20 +0200 Message-ID: <83k2nzhom3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <567ECD8C.1070408@cs.ucla.edu> <8360zlhy7x.fsf@gnu.org> <567EE043.9020109@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4chgh5q.fsf@gnu.org> <567EED47.1090700@cs.ucla.edu> <83si2pgci8.fsf@gnu.org> <567F22B1.9040702@cs.ucla.edu> <2dc99848-b6d5-4f53-b22c-66e29d15647c@default> <567F3A5D.80502@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451231743 28768 80.91.229.3 (27 Dec 2015 15:55:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 15:55:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, Emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 27 16:55:42 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aDDfZ-0003yR-JD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 16:55:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41941 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDDfZ-0006M4-1o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:55:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39494) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDDfV-0006Lh-2l for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:55:38 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDDfQ-000467-F9 for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:55:37 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42722) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDDfQ-000463-Bi; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:55:32 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2264 helo=HOME-C4E4A596F7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aDDfP-0001CW-Ew; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:55:31 -0500 In-reply-to: <567F3A5D.80502@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sat, 26 Dec 2015 17:09:49 -0800) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:196975 Archived-At: > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 17:09:49 -0800 > Cc: Emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Section 6.2 of the Unicode Standard states: > > U+2019 right single quotation mark is preferred where the character is to represent a punctuation mark, as for contractions: “We’ve been here before.” In this latter case, U+2019 is also referred to as a punctuation apostrophe. The Unicode recommendations should be taken with a grain of salt when applying them to Emacs, especially for major modes which aren't derived from Text mode. Unicode Standard is about typesetting and displaying plain text, it says that much in many places. See "Plain Text" in Chapter 2 of the standard, which says, inter alia: The Unicode Standard encodes plain text. The distinction between plain text and other forms of data in the same data stream is the function of a higher-level protocol and is not specified by the Unicode Standard itself. Even in the passage quoted in this thread, it says "When text is set" (with "set" meaning "typeset" here). Whenever any markup is used, or some other high-level protocols are applicable, Unicode (voluntarily) takes a back seat. The issue at hand is not with plain text, but with comments in a major mode that supports Lisp, i.e. the text in the buffer has syntax of a source of a program. Text handling in such buffers has its own high-level protocols that override Unicode recommendations where needed. As a trivial example, we fontify comments and strings in this mode to have special appearances that are outside of the Unicode scope. As a less trivial example, evaluate the following in a buffer under Fundamental mode: (insert ";; אבגדה\n") You will see that this "Lisp comment" is displayed starting at the right edge of the window, as prescribed by the UBA, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm, which Emacs supports. Now do the same in *scratch* -- the comment is displayed starting at the left window edge instead, as you'd expect for a comment, because a buffer whose mode is for program sources overrides the UBA wrt to the "base paragraph direction". IOW, Emacs already behaves slightly differently in major modes that derive from prog-mode, and therefore there's nothing inherently wrong with deviating from plain-text related Unicode recommendations regarding the apostrophe, quotes, etc. So I think we should use our own judgment in this case, and what the Unicode Standard says is not the only source of wisdom we should consider.