From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27? Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2018 13:11:44 +0300 Message-ID: <83k1mv1j1b.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83y3bc2378.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1538820603 3360 195.159.176.226 (6 Oct 2018 10:10:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 10:10:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 06 12:09:58 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8jX4-0000kT-5X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 12:09:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38558 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8jZA-0001ci-KR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 06:12:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:32949) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8jZ5-0001cd-4O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 06:12:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8jZ4-0005eT-Dw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 06:12:03 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:48904) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8jYy-0005Zh-GV; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 06:11:56 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2849 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1g8jYy-0004UU-0j; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 06:11:56 -0400 In-reply-to: (message from Paul Eggert on Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:230246 Archived-At: > Cc: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700 > > However, that would be heading in the wrong direction, because we > shouldn't assume that Elisp code is reviewed only via Emacs. I regularly > use Savannah's web interface to look at Elisp source code diffs, for > example, and there's lots of other ways I and other developers use > non-Emacs programs to look at Elisp source. Because reading source code > is an essential property of free software, and because it would set a > bad precedent if we said or implied that one really should use only > Emacs to read Elisp code, we can't sufficiently address the problem > merely by highlighting characters when Emacs is viewing them in a > certain way and saying or implying that people should use only Emacs to > review Elisp code. > > I'm not arguing that Elisp should prohibit symbols from containing > confusing characters, only that these characters should be easily > recognizable in plain-text source code, without requiring Emacs itself > (configured a certain way) to view the source. For example, if we > required a backslash before every confusable character in a symbol, that > would go a long way toward addressing the problem. I agree that viewing ELisp code outside of Emacs is a valid use case. But I don't think a backslash before these non-ASCII quotes will significantly lower the confusion potential when those characters are used in the source. Basically, there's a contradiction here between our desire not to confuse relatively inexperienced users of ELisp and help them avoid problems which might be hard to figure out, and our desire not to annoy experienced users. Personally, I think that using faces strikes a good balance between these contradictory motives. I don't see how we can be harsh to uses of these characters without actually prohibiting their use in symbols.