From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 14:47:19 +0300 Message-ID: <83jzy66aig.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com> <83fs934pjf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wn2fk47y.fsf@posteo.net> <83sfd2g2ek.fsf@gnu.org> <875y9yfxrr.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1muefks.fsf@gmail.com> <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org> <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev> <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org> <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev> <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org> <35638c9d-e13f-fad8-5f95-ea03d65d4aa2@gmail.com> <87a5z3izst.fsf@web.de> <83v8hr7qk9.fsf@gnu.org> <83pm7z7nkc.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttxa6ghi.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3446"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: arne_bab@web.de, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 20 13:48:09 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ppSlk-0000fB-V7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 13:48:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppSkr-0001BZ-DI; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:47:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppSkm-0001AR-Gk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:47:08 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppSkk-0005XR-VS; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:47:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=U5I+oGoWY1W8JDKRCqA7DdYQzPHEvgpYmI0ci/UK+5c=; b=cjcrylIR4RkhvtxVLbY9 4hCYfZf2wH8OGI8OlZuUvDPvyNG+cMvuTLJSNnBbweo/ITd4zfyVPxU4cBjL7jgiMVCiFCaTZz+4T b00DMAJBzkQu6gjQZFe/12PNxFCVwF+4I7L6RbFsDm87/ieBCr+WYfnyeX99eh2aBQq9nQm4GweIY sAI25s/Xqm9EsDmM8RARnrC9WDgzI3PU6vAjlEeCWLJRPQ596r5lPRL+rRQh9C1D0c9FmImgHe8w/ W0cI1W+tmd+axgpDpEIn2LZGtyvXMmdzWtbYPbXHbf7wGZv+yeNPptTVT9pMzQsle3UcmrAx6MU5S sWzFtLsV36Kj7g==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppSkk-0001al-95; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:47:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:48:03 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305499 Archived-At: > From: João Távora > Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:48:03 +0100 > Cc: arne_bab@web.de, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > Recognize this writing? It is yours! > > > > Yes. Of course, you conveniently omitted the next paragraph I wrote, > > which described a different group of users, whose expectations would > > be broken by the changes you proposed. That was also "my writing". > > The code I'm trying to write should appease both. But you should > help characterize these users. I have. > > > > You assume that everyone will > > > > want Eglot and use-package automatically updated, but this assumption > > > > has no real basis. > > > > > > First, of course it has real statistical basis! Didn't I send you > > > links to tens and tens of issues were users reported their configurations > > > and one can actually see what users are doing to install Eglot? > > > > Since when "tens" and "everyone" are the same thing? > > Come on, you know that "everyone" is impossible to prove. I didn't expect you to prove it. My point is that your proposed solution is only correct if "everyone" indeed wants to update Eglot, and if not, your solution helps one group and breaks another. I cannot agree to such lopsided solutions. > Aren't tens (actually hundreds, I think) a good data point. Not enough to justify breaking the rest. > Can you show even one issue where someone was surprised/harmed by > furtive unintented updates of dependencies? You just heard one of them in this thread. > > It is clear that you like the solution you proposed, and see no > > problems with it. But I disagree, and at this point I have explained > > my disagreement enough times. > > No you haven't, sorry. Surer, I did. You just don't like the explanation, and so you pretend it doesn't exist. > I don't think that's time wasted: it's the only way the discussion > can advance. I don't think this discussion with you can make any progress. That hope was lost long ago, when I first said we should agree to disagree and leave it at that.