From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 08:49:06 +0200 Message-ID: <83jzqnv53x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <8334xcwank.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttpsuiv4.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0kwf1v7.fsf@dataswamp.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3958"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 12 07:49:51 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r24I2-0000nf-Mi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:49:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r24Hh-0004fS-6C; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:49:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r24Hf-0004fI-SI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:49:27 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r24Hd-0003Qn-1r; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:49:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=EeXo7/Nj4fxNkJ/O7HEi9XS/O1Vuit/KE+XFIHk2zYI=; b=apFESZFCPOYx VWlMxysFzAGYB1lrtBcfIWYZxDBMn2n+kW6cKcEjWYzfcNLUo7wPIz7mTzwExdUg6uwHUDBBmdX1/ eDzwRJsUlOVkm6k5wXV7fT1w1qJLUrvev6qOFqE8LDWCRpknU+iEiFJhmmlrRlExNLtt9tEh1wR6v zAr3kqDsP5KZH/eQ3vNIk6fdVzIw+8gRIma31cchwwQrDn2Xvw4yRc2lvmzBN9hHBB+gj2wOnmh/9 EK2ao3YAtyYowtx4xXy+6/skpSKkEcsO772yEIQ9ycre+o0NjZ9w/0cXGXRfw/M3dboIWOS2AEbs1 xCVGw8Nupev103gind0maA==; In-Reply-To: <87r0kwf1v7.fsf@dataswamp.org> (message from Emanuel Berg on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 21:53:32 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312637 Archived-At: > From: Emanuel Berg > Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 21:53:32 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >>> It isn't like we as a project never made any mistakes, but > >>> there's no reason to assume this decision is one of them > >>> until we have ample evidence. > >> > >> Seq is 10 years in Emacs > > > > It is preloaded only since a little more than a year ago. > > Why is it important again if something is preloaded or not? > > What does it mean in terms of technology? > > And apart from technology, is it also some kind of > political signal? It means that we consider it useful and important enough to have it always available, including in the code that gets dumped into the bare vanilla un-customized Emacs. > I must admit, both points are vague to me. We understand that > the increase in complexity of Elisp because of the use of > cl-lib is unrelated to when cl-lib is loaded. You don't have to understand it. The maintainers do, but you don't. If needed, we will point out the implications if they are relevant to the changes you submit to Emacs. > Are you keeping it out of some preloaded subset of Elisp? > Is that "the last stand" vs Common Lisp that Elisp is making? Don't be ridiculous.