From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:56:35 +0200 Message-ID: <83il65u2fw.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <8334xcwank.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttpsuiv4.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs1buzqs.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29952"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, michael_heerdegen@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 13 15:57:48 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2YNo-0007bS-8L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 15:57:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2YMz-00069a-7P; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:56:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2YMw-00069Q-7t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:56:54 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2YMu-00068o-0B; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:56:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=sDQFrnv6aH1+4ikmnkfv3Kjp1W7xXkded1iw2vR/6Us=; b=aYsdGeifKKtLBR0xBXCK XHUcE4mjVbWN3qV99Wo/qlY+65pHdGz6thFRiHH6h3l3CrBfqKQke1+gV9G+vU/lIZff40rvYzg6S X7gSZBYAbELWjLdO6RazL1pQOwJCDrDEFwRe78/WhaWwGsIfU+zxZM4qzScHGW9InM4Nb/7hW5NbQ ov4/+90Qt4vVulLgjaBnaYVjrPvz5d+AhTIMM/AMVSR5TB/xIkaZYLmXNWfABlWkbrwfvLCR0cp+C AavEcwmkfxnk12AuCafFM7Uhpf7FUOc/nlZAmriqQcwtWYjmTCph+BkM45w6V4UME6jHzuAlOP6XU qV0k8aWd9nyWAA==; In-Reply-To: (message from Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=B6llmann?= on Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:28:54 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312700 Archived-At: > From: Gerd Möllmann > Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, michael_heerdegen@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:28:54 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> And that things will "improve" once the promotion picks up speed? > > > > No. I'm saying that we are still very far from a point where we have > > enough data to decide whether that year-old decision was wrong or not. > > Whether we see an improvement or not, time will say. > > I think here's once difference in our thinking: One of my main critiques > does not depend on time. Please see below It is perfectly fine to apply different strategies of assessing Emacs features, especially since no one can have expert knowledge of every part in Emacs, and we probably differ in which parts of Emacs are more familiar to each one of us. E.g., if we were talking about changes in bidi.c, I would probably be able to offer definitive opinions and critiques right there and then. > >> > Searching for seq-* in the tree brings more than 590 hits in more than > >> > 170 Lisp files. > >> > >> And? The polymorphism isn't used. > > > > Then I guess I don't understand what you mean by "polymorphism". > > C'mon :-) > > This sub-thread started, when I told why I'm not using seq and will not. > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-11/msg00122.html > I said this (this is all I wrote): > > The reason I will not use seq.el or map.el in the forseeable future is > quite simple: I haven't ever needed an abstraction over sequence types > using generic functions, and I never have CPU cycles to give away for > free. This doesn't explain why you say that polymorphism isn't used, it just states your reasons for not using seq.el. So I'm still in the dark here, sorry. > Neither you nor Richard ever addressed the question why this > polymorphism is needed or even a Good Thing. Maybe it isn't strictly necessary, but I don't see why it should be rejected, once it is there. Several contributors to Emacs whose opinions I respect liked the way seq.el is implemented, and wanted to use it, which is one reason why it is preloaded. > I doubt that your, and Richard's, intention is to really communicate > over these issues. It has already been decided by Richard and you, > right? The rest is rabulistic. Slow is fast enough, time will show, > maintainers think this or that, it's preloaded, it's not concrete, what > is polymorphism, and so on, and so on. Conspiracy theory is still missing. "Rabulistic"? really? With anyone else I'd take offense. With you, I'm just infinitely puzzled, not to say astonished. Whatever did I do or say to deserve such denigration? I do have an opinion on this issue, but since when is it deemed improper to have an opinion, and why sticking to that opinion as long as no argument is brought up that makes me change my mind is considered a vice? I provided technical arguments which explain my position; you can disagree, of course, but please don't treat them as something unworthy, let alone dishonest.