From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Should we restore manually maintained ChangeLogs Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:02:29 +0200 Message-ID: <83h9ggrgp6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <87vb4zb0i4.fsf@gnu.org> <837fheuu6a.fsf@gnu.org> <83twkiteb3.fsf@gnu.org> <83lh5utbxb.fsf@gnu.org> <56DDD02A.20809@cs.ucla.edu> <83fuw2t2ue.fsf@gnu.org> <1ceba0e3-b8a7-393d-ce41-213aee11b7f8@yandex.ru> <83si01rn0y.fsf@gnu.org> <52e98fbe-260c-c367-b7a7-ab9f00db7891@yandex.ru> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457460183 17938 80.91.229.3 (8 Mar 2016 18:03:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:03:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: mthl@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, johnw@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 08 19:02:53 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adLy3-0000Wl-RY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 19:02:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36394 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adLy2-0006x4-Uq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:02:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45755) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adLxp-0006wZ-Oa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:02:34 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adLxl-0002sw-Kc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:02:33 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:44477) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adLxg-0002sD-LO; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:02:24 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3002 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adLxc-0006td-MG; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:02:21 -0500 In-reply-to: <52e98fbe-260c-c367-b7a7-ab9f00db7891@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:44:47 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201186 Archived-At: > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:44:47 +0200 > Cc: mthl@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, johnw@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 03/08/2016 05:45 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > You (and some others) say the format and the content in the log > > messages are important, and I agree. But if we do care about them, > > how can we NOT clean them up? Having them in their current state > > means they cannot be trusted, which is worse than not having them at > > all. > > That's true. But my motivation for using ChangeLogs stems from having > people describe their changes in a strict format. If someone writes a > wrong name or omits the "copyright-exempt" header, I could live with that. > > We should find out how much it is of a problem, though, legally speaking. Not just legal aspect are at stake. I tried to explain that in one of my previous messages. > >> Has the current experiment really sucked too much energy from anyone, aside from the implementors? > > > > Why do you think Glenn gave up? > > My bad. All right, Glenn gave up fixing errors. Isn't that because > people made too much mistakes, and didn't bother to fix them? > > Even if we transition to the previous system, it will need the same > people to fix their errors. It is easy to ask someone to fix a mistake in a file and push the change. With the current system, fixing mistakes requires a much more complex procedure, and also screws up merges to master. > > The current system is much more hassle for non-random contributors, so > > much so that we risk losing them, something we cannot afford. > > Will someone decide to stop contributing to Emacs because our Change Log > entries contain mistakes? That doesn't sound very plausible. When people like Glenn give up in despair, I think the danger is real. IME, it's hard to be part of a project that ignores repeated requests to fix something you believe must be fixed.