From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:09:04 +0300 Message-ID: <83h7xbe6kf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8wXYP4GY9hwW-9mYv6_LGMETZ8Vz3Ob1Bec6yh6kPT7yxjTkxA3V6dXY4ELra9tYiJUxJmgXKSIEX4w8HFiPRoeGVSQHDSoBVy1voj1e3Qo=@protonmail.com> <83imhzecc5.fsf@gnu.org> <83y2qvcjv6.fsf@gnu.org> <83k12ed20s.fsf@gnu.org> <83blnqctyj.fsf@gnu.org> <9341072a-cf53-9092-2211-aa97c946e5b1@yandex.ru> <838sinfygb.fsf@gnu.org> <16fad982-e95b-7df1-25d0-1c666a6f8120@gmail.com> <83tv1begq5.fsf@gnu.org> <525fe795-0716-a224-ded0-00e49548aa3d@yandex.ru> <83lfmne9z1.fsf@gnu.org> <67546075-1419-acd2-53cd-f44d101bc26b@yandex.ru> <83k127e8vc.fsf@gnu.org> <5a2268d3-180c-fac9-8a1f-4b0cbb438d2d@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="60438"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 20:10:32 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJpP-000FaK-Hw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:10:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55540 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJpO-0006uH-JX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:10:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJoK-0005qZ-7v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:09:24 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34510) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJoJ-0006Mu-5Z; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:09:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1219 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJoI-0005C8-L3; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:09:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5a2268d3-180c-fac9-8a1f-4b0cbb438d2d@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:34:45 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247544 Archived-At: > Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:34:45 +0300 > > >> On GTK, we're already there. Since 22.2, apparently. Only we haven't > >> been paying attention to keeping this feature in proper maintenance. > > I'm asking people to think whether we_want_ that. That we are one > > leg there doesn't yet mean we decided to do that consciously. You are > > suggesting to make that a policy, and that's a serious decision, IMO. > > First of all, I'm suggesting we fix how the icons look in the GTK build. Fixing them by replacing the current icons with prettier ones is okay. Using the toolkit icons everywhere, as a matter of policy, is a different matter. > Then you are welcome to discuss whether macOS and Windows could use > something like that. And whether they should. Since you're skeptical of > this approach from the outset, I'd rather bow out of that discussion. Forget MS-Windows and macOS, that's not my worry right now. IIUC, your suggestion was to use whatever native icons each toolkit offers on Posix platforms as well, and it wasn't limited to GTK. That is the decision I was talking about. I myself have no strong opinions on this, only weak ones. But no serious decision-making should happen without a "red team" on board making sure we don't fall victim to groupthink simply because no one dares to ask a question about the nature of emperor's clothes. I tried to present arguments to the contrary with that in mind, so people could consider both sides.