From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: emacs-29 9b775ddc057 1/2: ; * etc/EGLOT-NEWS: Fix wording of last change. Date: Sat, 06 May 2023 18:44:01 +0300 Message-ID: <83h6spfose.fsf@gnu.org> References: <168335548287.8529.4912240840977468283@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <20230506064443.56C75C22F15@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <59835735-faa0-4096-e491-35ec92964b7a@gutov.dev> <831qjthhm8.fsf@gnu.org> <715cdac6-83f6-6907-2ff8-3b33381f3487@gutov.dev> <83zg6hg29c.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttwpfvcr.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6112"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 06 17:44:00 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pvK4m-0001QL-7z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 May 2023 17:44:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvK3w-0005pc-Bj; Sat, 06 May 2023 11:43:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvK3u-0005pP-Ru for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 May 2023 11:43:06 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvK3u-0001vw-Dm; Sat, 06 May 2023 11:43:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=/0cF2cF4ibjkVxUWG+6haUIMF8gPo7qZn+AOrw/9UXU=; b=jj/8I0TEleta r7pkwpxkIztdOCTgXIat92+3ZUrwX02NjCrRTKCWejVKsnJMtXBHss1fxC8s2DyRf2QfyfQsIJf5T SWEhtIXbsJzhnVFzaT2+aS7aLjlOxiPoT8U9Z8ysl9avzMvI2xfSLuAVX4Z7q0EgZDZrd1x5AqnAz 2bNRGRtlvOrc91onN8H1l/vCQDvaHHMAiwtJX7cXxM0qHqRHg1fRaetqaOOkcoF+azQc0r0IGHra1 AZc5bJehkL1T8yXH6Wx0665n+SwSRqBtFUOP/W8PqZYQhFKAP9cHjuGOqjeeiZV6jFSwCHzpdsHSA boDPH8xiHYdc+qhNBy9blg==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvK3t-0000M6-TC; Sat, 06 May 2023 11:43:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Dmitry Gutov on Sat, 6 May 2023 18:26:11 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305915 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 6 May 2023 18:26:11 +0300 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > > >> One more time: in Emacs 28 package-install doesn't upgrade, > >> but it installs the latest, which is incompatible behaviour > >> if you move to Emacs 29, where that won't happen. > > > > Is this for Eglot (and use-package), or is this for any package > > installed from ELPA? IOW, does Emacs 29's package-install still > > install the latest version of a package from ELPA? And does that > > happen even if some older version of a package is already installed? > > Like Joao said: > > Yes to the first, no to the second. Yes, except that I asked 3 questions, not 2, and the first was "either or", so saying "yes" doesn't help. But never mind. > Meaning, 'M-x package-install' will install the latest version (or some > available version) from ELPA, if the package is not installed. > > If some version of it is installed from ELPA (!) already, 'M-x > package-install' won't upgrade. Then I don't understand why you decided to drop the similar change to package-upgrade. At the time I thought package-install can be used as an alternative, but if it cannot, I think we should add to package-upgrade the same optional behavior of upgrading a built-in package as we have in package-install. What other methods currently exist to upgrade an already installed package (or a non-built-in package that is already installed)? I know about one -- via lisp-packages (a.k.a. package menu); are there others? Will any of these methods upgrade a built-in package, at least as an optional behavior? > >> So if you're used to setting up a brand new Emacs 28 and > >> package-install Eglot to get versions with nice features and > >> bugfixes, you may be dismayed to find that doing the very > >> same thing in Emacs 29 results in what will probably be a > >> old version. > > > > Are you talking about users who didn't update their Eglot, except when > > a new Emacs version was released? Or are you talking about users who > > updated Eglot from ELPA (using package-install) even between Emacs > > releases? Or are you talking about something else entirely? > > He is mostly talking about users who e.g. wiped their config directory > and ~/.emacs.d/elpa and are starting anew. Or just deleted > ~/.emacs.d/elpa/eglot-xxxxxx. Is this what many users do? I'd be surprised, but maybe I'm missing something. > In that situation, indeed, 'M-x > package-install' will install the latest version from ELPA. > > In Emacs 29, however, it won't. Because one version of Eglot is > available already (built-in). But if emptying ~/.emacs.d/elpa is not a frequent use case, why should we care about it so much? It sounds like bug#62720 and the entire long dispute that followed were focused on this strange use pattern, instead of talking about more reasonable upgrade scenarios? > I'm pretty sure I have outlined this twice already, not too long ago. > Prefacing the first message with an apology, saying I had been > previously confused myself. I apologize for being confused and for asking almost the same questions repeatedly, but given that fact that even people who are familiar with package.el are confused, I think I'm in good company.