Typing raw bytes

Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
bytes.  How would I go about that?

I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.

Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
"C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
encoding.

The only way I found that does the job is insert-byte, which is not
very convenient.  For starters, it's not a command.

Is there something else I'm missing?  Should I file a bug?

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Ivan Andrus]

On Jan 20, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> bytes.  How would I go about that?
> 
> I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
> let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.

I for one would love it if hexl-mode let you insert bytes.

-Ivan

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Michael Welsh Duggan]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> bytes.  How would I go about that?
>
> I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
> let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.
>
> Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
> "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
> than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
> characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
> windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
> encoding.

Could you give an example that fails to do what is expected?  I tried
what you referenced above, using "C-x RET f raw-text RET" and C-q insert
bytes.  Saving the file worked just fine, resulting in the expected file
length.  "M-x find-file-literally" on the resulting file also seemed to
work just fine.  Note, however, that I am running Emacs under GNU/Linux.

-- 
Michael Welsh Duggan
(md5i@md5i.com)

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@md5i.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:55:13 -0500
> 
> Could you give an example that fails to do what is expected?  I tried
> what you referenced above, using "C-x RET f raw-text RET" and C-q insert
> bytes.  Saving the file worked just fine, resulting in the expected file
> length.  "M-x find-file-literally" on the resulting file also seemed to
> work just fine.  Note, however, that I am running Emacs under GNU/Linux.

If that was a GUI session, then on GNU/Linux there's no decoding of
keyboard input.  Try in a TTY session instead.

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Michael Welsh Duggan]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@md5i.com>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:55:13 -0500
>> 
>> Could you give an example that fails to do what is expected?  I tried
>> what you referenced above, using "C-x RET f raw-text RET" and C-q insert
>> bytes.  Saving the file worked just fine, resulting in the expected file
>> length.  "M-x find-file-literally" on the resulting file also seemed to
>> work just fine.  Note, however, that I am running Emacs under GNU/Linux.
>
> If that was a GUI session, then on GNU/Linux there's no decoding of
> keyboard input.  Try in a TTY session instead.

Ah, ha!  I see.  Yes, I would have to call that a bug.  Regardless of
whether the extraneous \302 characters I am getting are incorrect (and I
agree with you that they are), the fact that the results are different
in a GUI and a terminal session is definitely a bug.

-- 
Michael Welsh Duggan
(md5i@md5i.com)

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Benjamin Riefenstahl]

Hi Eli,

> Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> bytes.  How would I go about that?

I tried M-x set-buffer-coding-system RET iso-8859-1 RET and it seems to
work.  I also had to set read-quoted-char-radix to 10 to be able to use
codepoints in the form that I know them ;-).

The trick here is that iso-8859-1 uses the same codepoints as Unicode,
but encodes them directly as bytes.

I think this should work with the no-conversion/binary coding system,
but it doesn't.  I do not know if the current behaviour of
no-conversion/binary is useful to somebody.

benny

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Benjamin Riefenstahl <b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:59:44 +0100
> 
> > Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> > bytes.  How would I go about that?
> 
> I tried M-x set-buffer-coding-system RET iso-8859-1 RET and it seems to
> work.

iso-8859-1 doesn't cover the entire range of 8-bit bytes from 0x80 to
0xff, so not every byte can be typed with this trick.

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Benjamin Riefenstahl]

> iso-8859-1 doesn't cover the entire range of 8-bit bytes from 0x80 to
> 0xff, so not every byte can be typed with this trick.

I just tried 0x80, 0x90, 0x85, 0xff and 0x7f which all worked.  Last
time I had also tried 0x00, which also was ok.  What is missing?  AFAIK,
while the range 0x80-0x9F is reserved for non-printable control
characters, those characters are not actually invalid.

benny

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Benjamin Riefenstahl <b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net>
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:47:33 +0100
> 
> > iso-8859-1 doesn't cover the entire range of 8-bit bytes from 0x80 to
> > 0xff, so not every byte can be typed with this trick.
> 
> I just tried 0x80, 0x90, 0x85, 0xff and 0x7f which all worked.

What do you mean by "worked"?  Did you try to save them?

Inserting raw bytes into a multibyte buffer is playing with fire.

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Benjamin Riefenstahl]

>> I just tried 0x80, 0x90, 0x85, 0xff and 0x7f which all worked.
>
> What do you mean by "worked"?  Did you try to save them?

I set the coding system to iso-8859-1, set read-quoted-char-radix to 16,
inserted the characters with C-q 80 RET etc., saved the file and the
result was this:

  $ hexdump -C test.bin
  00000000  80 90 85 ff 7f                                    |.....|
  00000005
  $

> Inserting raw bytes into a multibyte buffer is playing with fire.

I inserted ISO8859-1 characters with the knowledge that ISO8859-1 is a
one-to-one mapping from Unicode codepoints to bytes.  This is
effectively how the Unicode codepoints U+0000 to U+00FF are defined, so
I expect that that coding system should work that way.

For the record, for testing I am using a GTK-based Emacs 24.2.92 on X11
(GNU/Linux), running "emacs -Q", my locale is UTF-8, even
keyboard-coding-system is utf-8-unix.  I tried the same with "emacs -Q
-nw" and this also works the same.

benny

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Benjamin Riefenstahl <b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net>
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 20:38:01 +0100
> 
> I inserted ISO8859-1 characters with the knowledge that ISO8859-1 is a
> one-to-one mapping from Unicode codepoints to bytes.  This is
> effectively how the Unicode codepoints U+0000 to U+00FF are defined, so
> I expect that that coding system should work that way.

But Emacs doesn't represent characters as Unicode code points
internally.  It uses a variant of UTF-8, where all codes above U+007F
are represented by more than one byte.

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Andreas Schwab]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
> "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
> than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
> characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
> windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
> encoding.

FWIW, raw bytes are in the range #x3fff80 - #x3fffff.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:59:50 +0100
> 
> FWIW, raw bytes are in the range #x3fff80 - #x3fffff.

You mean, use "C-x 8 RET 3fff80 RET" to insert \200, etc.?

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Andreas Schwab]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> You mean, use "C-x 8 RET 3fff80 RET" to insert \200, etc.?

Yes.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <83hambpqds.fsf@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> bytes.  How would I go about that?

> I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
> let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.

> Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
> "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
> than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
> characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
> windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
> encoding.

Please use C-q in a unibyte buffer.  For instance,

M-x find-file-literally RET _FILE_NAME_ RET
C-q 3 7 7 RET
C-x C-s

or

C-x b _NEW_BUFFER_NAME_ ERT
M-x toggle-enable-multibyte-characters RET
C-q 3 7 7 RET
C-x C-s

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@gnu.org

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kenichi Handa <handa@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 08:22:17 +0900
> 
> In article <83hambpqds.fsf@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> > bytes.  How would I go about that?
> 
> > I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
> > let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.
> 
> > Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
> > "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
> > than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
> > characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
> > windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
> > encoding.
> 
> Please use C-q in a unibyte buffer.

But "C-x RET f raw-text RET" does just that.  And it still didn't work
for me, at least not on Windows.  Does it work for you in a TTY
session on Unix?

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 05:50:31 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > From: Kenichi Handa <handa@gnu.org>
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 08:22:17 +0900
> > 
> > In article <83hambpqds.fsf@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> > 
> > > Suppose I want to create a file whose contents is a series of certain
> > > bytes.  How would I go about that?
> > 
> > > I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
> > > let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.
> > 
> > > Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
> > > "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
> > > than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
> > > characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
> > > windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
> > > encoding.
> > 
> > Please use C-q in a unibyte buffer.
> 
> But "C-x RET f raw-text RET" does just that.

Ignore me: raw-text doesn't make the buffer unibyte.

find-file-literally is the way.  Thanks.

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Stefan Monnier]

> I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
> let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.

nhexl-mode should let you do that.

> Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
> "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
> than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
> characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
> windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
> encoding.

Subsequent messages explain it seems to be due to the C-q NNN char being
passed through keyboard-coding-system: that seems to be a bug.
Another problem might be that C-x RET f raw-text RET should try to put
the buffer in unibyte mode.


        Stefan

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 20:40:57 -0500
> 
> Subsequent messages explain it seems to be due to the C-q NNN char being
> passed through keyboard-coding-system: that seems to be a bug.

How is that a bug?  Keyboard input decoding is not the issue here; how
the result is inserted into a buffer is, IMO.

> Another problem might be that C-x RET f raw-text RET should try to put
> the buffer in unibyte mode.

It did.

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Subsequent messages explain it seems to be due to the C-q NNN char being
>> passed through keyboard-coding-system: that seems to be a bug.
> How is that a bug?

AFAIK C-q NNN should insert the char whose internal character code is
NNN (in Emacs's own encoding, not in the keyboard's), so the
keyboard-coding-system should not have any influence.

> Keyboard input decoding is not the issue here; how
> the result is inserted into a buffer is, IMO.

In a unibyte buffer, a character code NNN (where NNN is less than 256)
should be inserted as that byte without any loss.


        Stefan

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:38:20 -0500
> 
> >> Subsequent messages explain it seems to be due to the C-q NNN char being
> >> passed through keyboard-coding-system: that seems to be a bug.
> > How is that a bug?
> 
> AFAIK C-q NNN should insert the char whose internal character code is
> NNN (in Emacs's own encoding, not in the keyboard's), so the
> keyboard-coding-system should not have any influence.

It doesn't, indeed.  I was wrong.  The problem was the insertion of
8-bit codes into a multibyte buffer, which silently converts them to
multibyte characters as appropriate to the current locale.

> > Keyboard input decoding is not the issue here; how
> > the result is inserted into a buffer is, IMO.
> 
> In a unibyte buffer, a character code NNN (where NNN is less than 256)
> should be inserted as that byte without any loss.

I was wrong about the buffer being unibyte: raw-text doesn't do that.
(I think it used to do so in some old version of Emacs, and the memory
sticked.)

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Stefan Monnier]

> I was wrong about the buffer being unibyte: raw-text doesn't do that.
> (I think it used to do so in some old version of Emacs, and the memory
> sticked.)

When visiting a file with raw-text, the buffer is put in unibyte mode,
so C-x RET f should probably do likewise, at the very least if the
buffer is empty.


        Stefan

Re: Typing raw bytes

[Richard Stallman]

    I tried "M-x hexl-mode RET" in a new buffer, but it evidently doesn't
    let you insert bytes, only edit existing bytes.

Insertion and deletion would be a good feature to add.

    Next I tried "C-x RET f raw-text RET" in a new buffer followed by
    "C-q NNN" etc., but the data written thereafter to disk is more bytes
    than I typed, because, I guess, "C-q NNN" inserts windows-1255
    characters (this is on Windows, where keyboard-coding-system is
    windows-1255-unix), and what winds up in the file is their UTF-8
    encoding.

Perhaps find-file-literally should set keyboard-coding-system so that
this does the right thing.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call