From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: HTML-Info design Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 18:12:49 +0200 Message-ID: <83fvc5ni0u.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87h9wqimf0.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87y4q1fekv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87fvc858c6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ioh4nf8k.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> <83y4pzptpx.fsf@gnu.org> <871tnr1gqo.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> <83bnmvowdb.fsf@gnu.org> <83ppbanqhe.fsf@gnu.org> <87vbl2xigp.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> <83ioh2nlow.fsf@gnu.org> <87sig6xech.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419437606 30204 80.91.229.3 (24 Dec 2014 16:13:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 16:13:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Nic Ferrier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 24 17:13:19 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3oYp-0007vw-0L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:13:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48794 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3oYo-0007b9-Cq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:13:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48596) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3oYZ-0007Gb-5K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:13:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3oYU-0000TJ-Ib for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:13:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:65262) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3oYU-0000T7-B6; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:12:58 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NH300I00GWYMT00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 18:12:57 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NH300I79H1K4480@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 18:12:57 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87sig6xech.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180645 Archived-At: > From: Nic Ferrier > Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 21:09:50 +0000 > > > Now, it could well be that adding those is a piece of cake, but I just > > don't know that. Until you show me that it is indeed doable without > > jumping through hoops, and can work on several popular browsers, I > > won't be convinced, sorry. > > Ok. It's not a piece of cake. But it's totally doable. I guess you don't > have to believe me. I need to see at least part of it to believe. > > Likewise with the directionality of the index prompt -- it might be a > > minor issue for a POC, but if it turns out that it is insoluble in > > principle, it's a showstopper, I hope you agree. > > It's not insoluble though. It's absolutely trivial. Then humor me and show how trivial it is. This is still a POC, not the real thing, right? We don't need to argue now whether it's absolutely TRT, just that it's possible, right? > What's not trivial is whether this is *the right* thing to do or > not. I'm not changing it to the way you want it just because you want it > like that. The web browser is a different medium to an emacs frame and > so maybe a different presentation is necessary. Not sure who else you will ask whether it is or isn't TRT, but at this stage I'm only worried whether it's technically possible. > > We are talking about replacing an existing browser, one that is > > developed for decades and is chock-full of useful features. I use > > many of them every day. > > We aren't talking about doing that as far as I'm concerned. Then I don't know what are we talking about. > I don't think there's any point in snapping our fingers and replacing > info. We couldn't possibly hope to do that. I think we commit to > replacing it with better tools over 10 years. Based on a 20-year experience in working on Emacs development, I don't believe in such long-term plans. There's no stable organization here to carry out such plans. Only some single motivated individual could do it, assuming we have on board someone who'd dedicate the next 10 years (or whatever it takes) to this job. > If we don't commit to changing the authorial format, over time and > improving the viewer, over time, then I think we're guilty of the > accusation esr has levelled against us of being stick in the muds. Again, based on my experience here, there's no way of "us committing" to something of this scale. It doesn't work like that in Emacs. Significant new features are developed by very small groups, mostly single individuals, then dumped on the community one bright day, and we spend the next 5 or 10 years improving those features, fixing bugs, and learning to live with them. Thanks.