From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:59:59 +0300 Message-ID: <83fv5jh8ls.fsf@gnu.org> References: <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <5581C29E.1030101@yandex.ru> <87r3p9fxm2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k2v0fiji.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150619090225.GA2743@acm.fritz.box> <87fv5kfrfa.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83twtzhi9g.fsf@gnu.org> <877fqvfvby.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434999636 7690 80.91.229.3 (22 Jun 2015 19:00:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 19:00:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 22 21:00:28 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z76xF-0004hF-F8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:00:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41545 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z76xE-0004ys-Dh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:00:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46323) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z76xA-0004yk-NM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:00:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z76x6-0000RO-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:00:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:33233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z76x5-0000QV-Ny; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:00:16 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NQD00A000DGBR00@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:51:42 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NQD0038S0E6LP60@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:51:42 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <877fqvfvby.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.180 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187393 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: acm@muc.de, > eggert@cs.ucla.edu, > rms@gnu.org, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 03:32:01 +0900 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > > The net result of this extremely slow progress is that many > > theoretical niceties >=20 > Availability of fonts with complete Latin repertoire and convenient > input methods are not theoretical niceties any more. They are > practical realities on any platform produced in the last decade. Try the Windows console some day. > > > and that his reaction is pre-judgment without enough relevant > > > experience. > >=20 > > "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you= ." > > Just because Some People=E2=84=A2 might have prejudice against t= hese quotes, > > it doesn't mean their introduction won't make our lives less > > convenient. >=20 > That is completely out of context. In the part you quote here, I w= as > arguing against a priori judgments for the whole project and all it= s > users, without any data except introspection to back them up. Not > that inconvenience for the opponents was zero to ten decimal places= . I'm saying that the problems might be real even though those who spea= k about them have prejudice, and therefore dismissing those problems just because of that prejudice might be a mistake. > But guess what? AFAICT, the rest of the software world doesn't hav= e > these problems. People are typing scores of odd characters in emai= l > to me all the time. And not just Japanese, but good ol' boys and > girls from the U S of A. How do they manage that, I wonder? My guess would be that the mail composing program inserts Unicode quotes when the user types ASCII quotes. > I see benefits to third parties that *you* ignore I don't ignore them. You will not see me objecting to these changes in any of the relevant discussions. I just think that we shouldn't dismiss so easily the issues these changes bring with them. IOW, we should see this issue in its delicate balance. > > While reverting a bunch of commits (whose number is growing by t= he > > hour, btw) might be relatively easy, those commits affect everyo= ne > > who is using Emacs, as reverting them, locally is hardly a > > practical option. >=20 > Huh? People deal with exactly this problem all the time, for examp= le > package maintainers in GNU/Linux distros. Sure, it's a skill you h= ave > to spend time developing, and I know that many people prefer not to > invest their time that way. But "not practical" is too dismissive. > It *is* a practical option, used by many in some contexts. It is not practical for me, as it will take too much time, time that = I don't have. I prefer that we did these changes right the first time -- as we have been doing recently.