From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 17:08:28 +0200 Message-ID: <83frz3lxg3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83frz4mmef.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5524"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Patrice Dumas Original-X-From: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 11 16:09:50 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rNwgn-00018O-2Z for gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 16:09:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNwgV-0001cg-BT; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 10:09:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNwgS-0001cA-Sq; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 10:09:29 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNwgQ-0007fT-Ta; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 10:09:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=E2Y1pXOOtcuGMXTsTyo2Zqk3IFRCXQWb4JHShuK2ZEc=; b=ZQWORW1JgHH6 f7kwWQe122NNIJuQ3mIaHvrTtvpiAl6mcK6uJL0W6xZJzkNodGfw8ZkPW73aIrCn05xKXjkyJ2Jwp g22t034q+osM0MC3AZIrhhLY2UfqBAY/cDI8Wh5vWfJa5mm3aPU1cnzj4PKlj8RIwrpu23iWGWOEk KOxwE691cdqa85NsQ+hOBM7KVIHmCax6TXSrnp7MiIFQeNt8p8lYiU8Sz2PdhjWWHL22QJRhLUWnx Nd6fvsdvu6oqFeOKja0o9H5g0xR0EIaXaVJAt4t52HZw8Ejqi7dOBJMI4eBLmq6qPrtciTwsUOIqt it3ZT1rRWbEs0e07NPNbOg==; In-Reply-To: (message from Patrice Dumas on Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:49:12 +0100) X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3404 gmane.emacs.devel:314856 Archived-At: > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:49:12 +0100 > From: Patrice Dumas > Cc: jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, > vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, > help-texinfo@gnu.org > > > The translator doesn't always know whether a translated manual exists > > when the translation is being written. And even if a translated > > manual does exist, there's no reason to be sure it will be installed > > on the end-user's system. > > Having nodes linking to non installed manuals is, in general, an issue. > But I do not think that defaulting to the english manual for non english > manuals is a good thing to do. Instead, it could be confusing, > especially if the missing translated manual is not shown prominently and > an english manual is substituted without much information and would not > convey the intention of the manual writer. I guess there are disagreements about the best course of action in these cases: some think it is better to produce an error message, while others think falling back to the English version of the manual is better. So this will most probably be a user option, so that each one could customize what happens. > In my opinion, it would be much better to design a way to help with > installing a manual that is not already installed but exists and is > linked to irrespective of the issue of translations and still leave the > responsibility to setup the cross reference to the translator. Having > some way to check node links in Info through automatic downloading of > manuals and check of all the referencecs could be nice too, but without > any special treatments of manuals not in english. This is a much more complex solution, and it has some problematic aspects: it requires a network connection and some users consideer such features an annoyance. > Having @anchor indeed can help if the translator wants to link to the > english manual with translated node names. Still, in my opinion, it > should only happen if the translator has setup the @ref to link to the > english manual by using the english manual name as @ref manual argument. Having @anchor with the English node name will allow cross-manual links to go to a translated manual if it exists, falling back to the English manual: all it takes is try to find manual-LANG.info (when the user's language is LANG) before falling back to manual.info. Whereas cross-references with the translated manual could use the translated node names instead. This will also allow translators not to bother in cross-references about translations of node names in other manuals: they could simply use the English node names. > On the contrary, I think that having translators be responsible of cross > manual references is the best possible solution. It could mean a link > to an english or translated manual based on a choice and not on an > automatic rule. In that case, a choice seems to be better to me. Yes, it will probably need to be a user option.