From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: src/Makefile unhelpful Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 08:42:23 +0300 Message-ID: <83edwia2m8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83bkrrj48w.fsf@gnu.org> <83tu5ifl5d.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31196"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 11 08:02:15 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oXG2o-0007wk-P1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2022 08:02:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45358 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oXG2n-0002eK-AB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2022 02:02:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35586) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oXFju-0002QY-QR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2022 01:42:42 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45856) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oXFju-0007Vh-Ck for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2022 01:42:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=WImjMAMsg5ZaNCOyG4Yg6x7HN/Fz8rHIWM4HD0C1Wwo=; b=XPezqXtntAN4 lP6i4e5gc26Mdh/p7iBueCFeSpy+SVcZQSjdiTwyLsVwyNzMy2tZFyHJGGfwKMm1g9eahMsLZsfR/ bThwLShXK/bfO3aLRzG5ehD793LfhRVwP5uP7NLPENWY0znE/hjMzDeXD+tKE3zgwQ1yl89b/mE4t y+Zfm9aRw3TuaNDgHx86K1rKE82oYetsrn5+DXiPryXxRm/SsnDnwSzSjoQuaxTglv21Ujmj69ChU f2eXX54jVIe8Gr86eKkMteKrUomL4Gu1Gv0FJ+SYPU6L0VHxIhMLCN6dJMlwWtX/TpZRllbfNBH5f X6tEVxumkO2iZrZNGkaIGg==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1445 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oXFjt-000573-99; Sun, 11 Sep 2022 01:42:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Sat, 10 Sep 2022 23:38:14 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:295159 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2022 23:38:14 -0400 > > > The command is quite long, so outputting it even once will write a lot > > of stuff to the screen, stuff that we almost always ignore. > > That is normal for output from make. Most of the output from make, we > normally ignore. Not anymore. Many/most GNU projects migrated to the short form you see in Emacs years ago, and as result the build process of many projects is much less chatty nowadays. These short forms use Make macros defined by Automake, so it isn't something specific to Emacs. The only Emacs-specific aspects are the commands that aren't seen in other builds, like byte-compilation -- for those we invented our own short names. But C/C++ compilation, linking, production of auto-generated files, etc. -- all this is used by many other GNU projects. > > It's a general Autoconf-based solution many/all GNU projects use, so > > if we want to change that to something more memorable, we should > > change that across the board. > > In reaching that conclusion you have implicitly rejected other kinds > of solutions. Unfortunately, this one has a fatal flaw: the autotools > don't have a lot of people working on them. If there were a good > solution in Autoconf or Automake, it would probably not get > implemented. Nevertheless, the problem you raise is common to all GNU projects using autotools. So, regardless of whether we implement our own solution for that, I think you should raise that on the autotools forum. IMO, problems should be raised even if we don't believe they will be worked on, just so people knew and acknowledged that they exist, and that problems they themselves experience are not their private ones.