From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@gutov.dev>,
Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>,
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: emacs-29 9b775ddc057 1/2: ; * etc/EGLOT-NEWS: Fix wording of last change.
Date: Sat, 06 May 2023 19:40:25 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <83edntfm6e.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <35df1362-fd92-9424-97d0-df3479414677@gutov.dev> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Sat, 6 May 2023 18:54:47 +0300)
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2023 18:54:47 +0300
> Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@gutov.dev>
>
> >> If some version of it is installed from ELPA (!) already, 'M-x
> >> package-install' won't upgrade.
> >
> > Then I don't understand why you decided to drop the similar change to
> > package-upgrade. At the time I thought package-install can be used as
> > an alternative, but if it cannot, I think we should add to
> > package-upgrade the same optional behavior of upgrading a built-in
> > package as we have in package-install.
>
> We now have a better solution on master: 'M-x package-upgrade' simply
> upgrades the built-ins, no questions asked.
What we have on master is not relevant to what we discuss here, which
is Emacs 29.
> If we added the behavior similar to the addition in package-install
> (with prefix arguments and guarded by an option, possibly even a new
> optional argument), we'd have to carry over that awkward convention to
> Emacs 30 in some form. And as you recall, Joao wasn't happy with either
> solution anyway (of those that you liked enough).
The question is: is it reasonable not to allow package-upgrade in
Emacs 29 to upgrade a built-in package? Not even as an option?
> > What other methods currently exist to upgrade an already installed
> > package (or a non-built-in package that is already installed)? I know
> > about one -- via lisp-packages (a.k.a. package menu); are there
> > others?
>
> Also:
> M-x package-upgrade
> M-x package-upgrade-all
>
> > Will any of these methods upgrade a built-in package, at least as an
> > optional behavior?
>
> Not in Emacs 29.
So I think we have a problem, and I think we need to solve it.
Philip, Stefan: WDYT about this?
What about installation from the list-packages menu: will it upgrade a
built-in package if package-install-upgrade-built-in is non-nil?
> > But if emptying ~/.emacs.d/elpa is not a frequent use case, why should
> > we care about it so much? It sounds like bug#62720 and the entire
> > long dispute that followed were focused on this strange use pattern,
> > instead of talking about more reasonable upgrade scenarios?
>
> We focused on it because, apparently, using 'M-x package-install' worked
> in more cases in Emacs 28 than in Emacs 29. And some think it's
> important. And because 'package-upgrade' is not in Emacs 28 at all.
If package-upgrade was not in Emacs 28, how did users upgrade
installed packages in Emacs 28 and before?
> Personally, I think it's better to focus on fixing 'package-upgrade'
> (which I did). But I don't think it's constructive to hide that fix
> behind a pref.
I don't see a zero-sum game here. We could focus on both. But I
don't use package.el and never will, so if those who use it and
maintain it think otherwise, I won't insist. Although I find this
stance very strange indeed, to say the least.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-05-06 16:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 52+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <168335548287.8529.4912240840977468283@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <20230506064443.56C75C22F15@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org>
2023-05-06 10:14 ` emacs-29 9b775ddc057 1/2: ; * etc/EGLOT-NEWS: Fix wording of last change Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 10:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 10:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 10:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 13:03 ` João Távora
2023-05-06 13:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 13:48 ` João Távora
2023-05-06 14:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 14:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 15:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 15:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 15:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 15:54 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 16:40 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2023-05-06 18:44 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-06 19:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-07 7:43 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-06 19:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 19:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 20:31 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-06 20:52 ` João Távora
2023-05-07 5:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-07 8:46 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-07 9:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-07 17:16 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-07 18:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-07 19:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-07 19:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-07 19:44 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-08 11:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-12 12:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-08 11:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-08 13:34 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-08 13:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-10 6:59 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-10 11:03 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-10 14:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-10 15:02 ` Ruijie Yu via Emacs development discussions.
2023-05-11 7:29 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-10 22:19 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-11 7:26 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-11 9:43 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-11 10:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-12 6:43 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-07 20:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-08 11:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-08 21:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-12 12:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-07 9:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-07 10:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 16:58 ` João Távora
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