From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:56:29 +0300 Message-ID: <83d20mh3s2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <5581C29E.1030101@yandex.ru> <87r3p9fxm2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k2v0fiji.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150619090225.GA2743@acm.fritz.box> <87fv5kfrfa.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83twtzhi9g.fsf@gnu.org> <877fqvfvby.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83fv5jh8ls.fsf@gnu.org> <874mlzf71d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1435071432 14682 80.91.229.3 (23 Jun 2015 14:57:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 14:57:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 23 16:57:02 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7PdE-0004dn-Sz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:57:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45714 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7PdE-0000wy-E3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:57:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40414) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7Pd4-0000lA-Oj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:56:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7Pcy-0000XO-TK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:56:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:52049) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7Pcy-0000Wg-Fo; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:56:44 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NQE00A00JMBLR00@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:48:09 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NQE0038GJS9YC70@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:48:09 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <874mlzf71d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.180 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187419 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: acm@muc.de, > eggert@cs.ucla.edu, > rms@gnu.org, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 12:16:46 +0900 >=20 > > Try the Windows console some day. >=20 > I have, and Japanese has worked fine for two decades AFAICR. This > includes various quotation marks, which have been accessible from > MSIME since Windows 9x at the latest. That might be specific to th= e > Japanese localization though, since you can't do anything without > input methods in Japan. I'm not talking about input methods here, I'm talking about display. In any case, localized versions of Windows (or any OS) are a thing of= the past; with Unicode we should be able to have all this regardless of t= he locale, right? But we don't. Not every locale is .UTF-8, and on Windows there's no UTF-8 locale at all. It's amazing how Windows, which was the first mass OS that adopted Un= icode, still doesn't have any decent support for it on the console. Display= ing Unicode in console programs needs to use undocumented halfheartedly supported features, tricky programming using wchar_t I/O, and eventua= lly you bump into the basic limitation that there are no bundled console = fonts that support any large subset of the BMP, let alone the other planes. > So please don't tell me that I'm dismissing your problems while > quoting my denial that I was dismissing them and the explanation of > what I *was* doing. Then please don't tell me my words were out of context while explaini= ng why they are. > > > But guess what? AFAICT, the rest of the software world doesn'= t have > > > these problems. People are typing scores of odd characters in= email > > > to me all the time. And not just Japanese, but good ol' boys = and > > > girls from the U S of A. How do they manage that, I wonder? > >=20 > > My guess would be that the mail composing program inserts Unicod= e > > quotes when the user types ASCII quotes. >=20 > It's not just quotation marks. It's foreign words spelled correctl= y, > ellipses, the occasional math symbol (the lemniscate (infinity) is > popular among the more flaky of my correspondents), emoticons, and > various other symbols (dice, playing card suit symbols, enclosed > characters such as circled numerals). There are too many of them t= o > excuse with "smart quotes"; users are using "input methods" of some > sort for these characters that don't exist on their keyboards. Not IME. When I type "1st", "2nd", etc., one particularly popular ma= iler, which will remain unnamed, automatically makes the "st" and "nd" part= s rendered as superscripts. Ellipses appear if I type "...", em-dashes appear if I type "--", and "=E2=86=92" if I type "-->". If I type "n= aive", it gets converted to "na=C3=AFve". Emoticons appear automatically if I type = their ASCII-art equivalents. Likewise with "(c)", "(tm)", "(r)", and "(e)"= (I'll let you guess what the last one gets me). There are special auto-conversions for math symbols, too numerous to mention. Plus, I'= ve counted more than a dozen of other such automatic conversions that I = can turn on or off. And -- no less important -- each auto-converted text= gets a small widget shown near it, which allows to undo that particular conversion with a single mouse click. Given all that, why would one need an input method, except when typin= g in some complex script? We in Emacs have yet a way to go until we get there. Are there any motivated volunteers reading this who'd like to provide something lik= e that in Emacs text modes? > Let's try loosening up and find out, no? Yes, let's. But let's not forget about the inconveniences this will = bring to some, either. Let's not dismiss them. Let's provide graceful fal= lbacks for them. As we are doing now. Let's not be too religious about the= se changes. > You don't bother to mention that you're aware of benefits, or what > they are, when you allege that I'm biased against admitting there a= re > costs. As far as I can tell from the words you post, you are indee= d > opposed to the changes, describing only costs at every turn. I can= 't > know what you're thinking but not posting, sorry. You can see what I'm coding, though. Messages I post here are only p= art of what I do for Emacs; the rest is in the repository. Who do you think= just spent several days getting emoticons to display correctly out of the = box, or on making the curved quotes display as reasonable fallbacks on a W= indows console? > > I just think that we shouldn't dismiss so easily the issues thes= e > > changes bring with them. IOW, we should see this issue in its > > delicate balance. >=20 > You're telling *me*? Not just you, everyone who reads this list. This ain't private mail,= and I'm not talking to you alone. > It's certainly true that I've engaged in hyperbole. That's my sole point: don't. Hyperboles don't help a bit here. > I'm sure Paul thought he was doing the right thing at the time. Th= e only > way for him to know what you think is the right way is for you to r= eview. > You didn't Yes, I did, see http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-05/msg00350.ht= ml http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-05/msg00438.ht= ml http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-06/msg00012.ht= ml and a lot of others. IOW, your mental model of what I think and do in these matters seems = to be flawed. > Of course it's possible to go too far. What's the appropriate > balance? I don't know. My point is that we should make these steps carefully, one step at a = time, and provide fallbacks and ways to switch this off where possible on e= very step. Which is what we've been doing. You seem to be advocating to = charge ahead and never look back, and that's not TRT, IMO. That's all I wan= ted to point out: there shouldn't be any fervor in this development, just cautious, slow movement ahead.