From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Goals for repo conversion day Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:25:34 +0200 Message-ID: <83a9eh9ytd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20140124185429.GA25191@thyrsus.com> <83k3dpcbpe.fsf@gnu.org> <20140125062551.GA2554@thyrsus.com> <83bnz0cxp8.fsf@gnu.org> <20140125140637.GA5631@thyrsus.com> <83vbx8azss.fsf@gnu.org> <20140125160124.GA8171@thyrsus.com> <83ppngasor.fsf@gnu.org> <20140125210132.GB13305@thyrsus.com> <83zjmiabsr.fsf@gnu.org> <20140127003312.GA20522@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390839963 11218 80.91.229.3 (27 Jan 2014 16:26:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:26:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: esr@thyrsus.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 27 17:26:04 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W7p0Z-0001kx-43 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:25:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60426 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7p0Y-0005mM-Nr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:25:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47873) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7p0R-0005lP-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:25:56 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7p0J-0000C8-HF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:25:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout28.012.net.il ([80.179.55.184]:54875) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7p0I-0000C2-Iw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:25:43 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout28.012.net.il by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N0200B00IKJ2Z00@mtaout28.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:27:09 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N02009ZUJ18PN20@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:27:09 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <20140127003312.GA20522@thyrsus.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.184 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:169168 Archived-At: > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 19:33:12 -0500 > From: "Eric S. Raymond" > Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org I initially wrote a much longer and detailed response, but eventually decided to scrap it. I doubt that this discussion is going anywhere, since you are determined to do what you think is right, no matter what I say or show. So this is a much shorter version, which only touches on a few issues that I don't yet understand, or where you didn't yet say enough. > To illustrate my methods, I fixed this by adding those revnos to the > ChangeLog section of the map file I enclosed in my last mail (it is > the file FOSSILS in my conversion directory). Then I ran a Python > script called 'decorate.py' that patched in the corresponding action > stamps. The point is that I didn't have to do the lookup by hand; the > fixup took less time to do than to describe. What will the "patched" ChangeLog entries and log messages look like? I think it's important that we see that in advance. > The Bazaar portion of the history isn't the problem, the CVS part is. > There are many instances in the CVS part of the Emacs history that > look something like this: > > 1. Eli changes file A and commits it > 2. Eli changes file B and commits it with an identical change comment. That's where you are wrong: in the CVS part of Emacs history, the change comments for these two commits will usually be different. Here's a typical example: ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 40047 committer: Eli Zaretskii timestamp: Fri 2001-10-19 16:32:49 +0000 message: *** empty log message *** modified: lisp/ChangeLog ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 40046 committer: Eli Zaretskii timestamp: Fri 2001-10-19 16:30:11 +0000 message: (auto-mode-alist): Associate .indent.pro with Fundamental mode. Suggested by Samuel Padgett . modified: lisp/files.el Here's another, more complex one (several commits in different directories, followed by commits of the 2 ChangeLog files describing those changes): ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45027 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:57:09 +0000 message: *** empty log message *** modified: lisp/ChangeLog src/ChangeLog ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45026 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:56:19 +0000 message: (display-time-mail-directory, display-time-mail-function): Doc fixes. modified: lisp/time.el ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45025 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:55:02 +0000 message: (Special Properties): Add index entry and xref for tooltips. modified: lispref/text.texi ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45024 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:53:39 +0000 message: Comment change. modified: src/eval.c src/fns.c ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45023 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:48:09 +0000 message: Delete ediff-hook.el page. modified: lisp/loaddefs.el ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45022 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:46:40 +0000 message: (Frequire): Error if called while preparing to dump. modified: src/fns.c ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 45021 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Tue 2002-04-30 17:46:26 +0000 message: (do_autoload): Error if called while preparing to dump. modified: src/eval.c There probably are multiple commits with the same commit message, but they are a tiny minority. > There is another case common in the Emacs history that can be > coalesced. That is: a file modification immediately followed by a > ChangeLog change describing it What do you mean by "immediately followed"? Is there some time window involved, or some other condition? If so, please spell them out. And please take a good look at the examples I pointed to in my previous message and above: those are very good examples of what most of our CVS history looks like. Instead of talking about hypothetical problems, let's talk about real ones, the ones relevant to _this_ project. > The other: historically, I've usually worked in collaboration with a > Mr. Inside, a senior project dev, who checked my work in progress from > a position of intimate knowledge of the project history. > > Congratulations, I think you've elected yourself for that job. Thanks, but manual QA can only go that far. I was talking about an automated one. There's no way a human, even a genius such as myself, could inspect any significant portion of a 120k commit history. There has to be automated verification of some kind, otherwise the quality of the result is anyone's guess, your record of converting other projects notwithstanding. Besides, I'm very much in doubt that cooperating with me will be a good idea: we see things too differently, and based on this discussion, will be unable to convince each other.