From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 14:29:55 +0200 Message-ID: <83a5rgtt4s.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <83leb3v5al.fsf@gnu.org> <87msvh6mds.fsf@sebasmonia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12309"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Sebasti=C3=A1n_Mon=C3=ADa?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 14 13:31:34 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2sZp-000320-Cu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:31:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2sYr-000483-In; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:30:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2sYi-000477-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:30:31 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2sYh-0007Nd-0F; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:30:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=LJLv3rB1KT465tlNb9Kk1rxibp+8Xl2NcbUJeYnZNjQ=; b=Fz445bF1pE0LK52udt1c oWqZLZtNJ4SZQFWDc6lRHm+yFK+72zFQUnxF/efI5C3D/+XUvn3CfmQfHLBVxUUD/VFKZozDPZKTZ Qqxxsta/Cj6L0uIWyMTjFcbSzJ5kAkb986opaa8NdfETDsdXV2YoQLD6IOJrkul1i35enyHs2MG8T AEo5oEVshYDJsoNUbteSkDdI7qwR+CW03J1NMAHRDVh9lCOApq6cnBk8aCPW7yhwgHuvaRD/JbT0d wkuCmbp/41Ri2g11TTjdtoBxFAkVqrEeOT/h6gdpNajLR+hxH1dd3O8L0725HIlzTCOadP46moKPU S52gXLXKj21bng==; In-Reply-To: <87msvh6mds.fsf@sebasmonia.com> (message from =?utf-8?Q?Sebas?= =?utf-8?Q?ti=C3=A1n_Mon=C3=ADa?= on Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:31:59 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312728 Archived-At: > From: Sebastián Monía > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:31:59 -0500 > > 1. This kind of thread is more "scary" to potential Emacs contributors > than any degree of complexity in cl-lib. I can confirm that. There's nothing to be scared of. People express their opinions, sometimes in strong and even harsh terms. Nothing special, it happens here all the time. People are people. Show me another development forum with many very different participants that doesn't exhibit such behavior from time to time. > 2. There's a lot of vague arguments for and against the library that, as > an semi-outsider, read more like stylistic preference. Sometimes > familiarity, or lack of it. Few objective reasons for/against. This, too, is quite usual in forums that discuss coding and styles. Many people don't possess basic abilities to stay focused and conduct a rational, constructive, and meaningful discussion, and we are no different here. Just open any TV channel where a few people discuss something non-trivial, and you will see it more often than not. > 3. Anyone interested in writing code for Emacs has to make the leap to a > Lisp (elisp, in this case) which is already quite alien to a large > population. For non-programmers, the problem is indistinguishable from > learning any other language. I came to Emacs Lisp from very different languages, and don't remember that as being a leap, just an adjustment of how I think about code and data. > Even for most people familiar with software development, cl-lib is > the least of their difficulties. Not my experience, FWIW. Maybe not the most of my difficulties, but it certainly isn't negligible.