From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 13:38:12 +0200 Message-ID: <83a5piu1y3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39518"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 06 12:38:45 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rM50n-000A5W-5B for gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:38:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM50X-00016J-9b; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 06:38:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM50W-000167-Le; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 06:38:28 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM50V-0002IC-Vc; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 06:38:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=wEK3hc/vkj2GGc2K6hNRiTNTtxypcewlnQ6x39IvylI=; b=Vr9T/4tnc7MyUHBA106x OJRneZSN+Cj6+HOlmUHB4gZuMfYFFEqjzBhSOSXyUqO34ryP6SVeyYDc07E6BD1rWIOacQSIBi9+z 4/Wr7Iod+PsywB+OQJbWTDNCwvNIskzmdZzNlmtFVgt+dmRu4+KApIoZ4uddk1tMbnA3BWU/Fv1z2 yyjm+0cHw4ltY76Nc7IK6iyYQ8zIr2iYaQvyN2G6sowIIysqD73TgYTPSgFlEyepyz8jEmxY0lAU9 xHYCYWLczHDcdfJbUwifR0Sap2+FwvQ83o+7bC8YXCeh0JBTEt5dZJdFijPX+sDa3mdj7Zqnq7bZ9 K/SoDE0pNpEshA==; In-Reply-To: (message from Jean-Christophe Helary on Sat, 06 Jan 2024 09:37:03 +0000) X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3369 gmane.emacs.devel:314606 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 09:37:03 +0000 > From: Jean-Christophe Helary > Cc: Stefan Kangas , Vincent Belaïche , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org > > >> Would @author be also used for the translator? > > > > @author is a TeX command and goes into the printed version. For > > translation, we'd need a separate directive, I think, since a > > translator is not the author. Again, this is something for the > > Texinfo folks to handle. > > Legally speaking a translator is an author. Depending on the > jurisdiction (Anglo-Saxon right vs EU right for ex.), the translator > hold full copyright on the translation, unless it was a work for hire, > etc. That’s why there are contracts between publishing houses and > translators to allow or not the use of the translation is such and such > format. I am not an IP lawyer, but I know what’s written in the > contracts I’ve signed. > > Creating another directive for the translation author seems like > splitting hairs. But maybe not using @author at all and just adding a > sentence in the text regarding the translation is the way to go. I don't know enough about this to have an opinion. I still think this is a GNU-wide decision that should be addressed by Texinfo folks. > >> Also, we will have to translate @node, because they appear in the > >> Section index. I see that they were kept in English in the SES manual. > > > > If we translate @node names, links from the doc strings and > > cross-manual links will not work. > > They will if they are translated in the other manuals. That’s what I’m > doing in the Emacs manuals at the moment. That means no fallback for when a translated manual doesn't exist to which the link points. Not sure this is better or what to do about that. Again, something Texinfo should address, I think. > > But, for such links to work, we > > need a facility to tell the Info reader that when a link goes to a > > manual named FOO.info, it should visit FOO-LANG.info instead. Again, > > something that involves a change in Texinfo and in all Info readers. > > What are the practical cases where translating nodes would be a problem? > > 1. I read a manual in English, there is a link with a node in English, > it directs to the other English manual. > > It’s the expected behaviour. > > 2. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in English, > it directs to the other English manual. > > If the other manual exists in French, it is not the proper behaviour. > > 3. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in French, it > directs to the other French manual. > > If the other manual exists in French, it is the proper behaviour. > > If it does not, we should have an error message that informs the reader > that the manual is not translated. I think case 3 should fall back to the English manual instead of erroring out. Having a manual without translation to an arbitrary language will be the usual case for quite some time, so an error message sounds like a harsh punishment to me.