From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Windows 9X compatibility Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:32:50 +0300 Message-ID: <838w9c2nm5.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83634jglab.fsf@gnu.org> <831vf7ge57.fsf@gnu.org> <83y6hfeyzw.fsf@gnu.org> <83vdcig87f.fsf@gnu.org> <87k4sywpvv.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83tys2fbxs.fsf@gnu.org> <87hbo1iubm.fsf@home.jasonrumney.net> <83ljddg0w9.fsf@gnu.org> <4BAE867D.3030404@gmail.com> <4BAE9ED4.6070900@t-online.de> <4BAEA525.20709@gmail.com> <83iq8ggbcp.fsf@gnu.org> <87mxxs3311.fsf@telefonica.net> <83eij430fc.fsf@gnu.org> <87iq8g2p9t.fsf@telefonica.net> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269808457 5413 80.91.229.12 (28 Mar 2010 20:34:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:34:17 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 28 22:34:12 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvzBS-0003hm-55 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:34:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43643 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NvzBR-0000vI-IJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:34:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NvzBA-0000qF-QS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:33:52 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=40376 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NvzB8-0000q1-N0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:33:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvzB5-0007LW-17 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:33:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:50314) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvzB4-0007LO-Mc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:33:46 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L0000C00E92ZE00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:32:46 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.176.135]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L0000C3EEEL7I30@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:32:46 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87iq8g2p9t.fsf@telefonica.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122816 Archived-At: > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:57:02 +0200 >=20 > >> First, I don't have a machine for testing. > > > > Neither do I. There's no requirement to test the code on Windows= 9X, > > only not to use code that we _know_in_advance_ will break W9X. >=20 > ... and precisely gaining this information is difficult, because yo= u > must read the documentation for every API call and even then you ca= n hit > a bug, which is not rare in W9X (and before you say that any API ha= s > this problem, well, yes, but not to the extent of W9X). You read too much into our reluctance to drop W9X support. There's n= o conscious effort to support W9X that would justify such a research. We _try_ not to break W9X on purpose, but eventually testing and reporting bugs (and sometimes, even debugging them) is up to the user= s of those systems. AFAIK, none of the active contributors to the Windows port has access to a W9X system these days. > > There's no requirements to use W9X-specific APIs. >=20 > Sorry, but do you have experience writing Windows raw API code on i= ts > successive incarnations since Windows 95? I'm starting to think you= have > not. Looking at the set of functions that makes the Windows API, th= ose > available on W95 are, for the most part, a proper subset of those > available on XP. So, in theory, and unless you use certain obsolete= d > parts of the API (shell interaction, for instance, which is not par= t of > the proper Windows OS API anyways) you are fine developing for W95.= BUT > there are two problems: quite a few W9X functions were extended on > successive Windows versions with new features, so checking that the > function is available on W9X is not enough, you must check that the= way > you intend to use the function is supported by W95. Often those > differences are so fundamental that you must split the usage of the= API > call, one instance for W9X and another for NT (if you are > lucky). Second, bugs are so frequent in the W9X API that, to all > practical uses, quite a few functions have a non-documented behavio= ur > that you must be aware of. We are nowhere near such an investment. Grep the sources for is_windows_9x: you will see that it is used in some 2 dozen places to return a failure indication where an advanced API is not available. There are only two places in Emacs sources where W9X gets more than a one-line code specific to it. That's all there is to it. > Is future W9X support important enough to risk the loss of just > *one* prospective contributor? No, it isn't. But I saw no evidence of such a risk until now. As I tried to explain above, the bar is much lower than you seem to think, because we do not promise any high-quality support for W9X that you have in mind. We just don't want to do anything that will surely remove any possibility to run Emacs on these systems.