From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:47:22 +0300 Message-ID: <838uyojapx.fsf@gnu.org> References: <523ED74D.4030205@online.de> <87ioxs4zc9.fsf@informatimago.com> <87k3i8vj93.fsf@yandex.ru> <83bo3kk6hh.fsf@gnu.org> <87eh8gzee5.fsf@yandex.ru> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1379918843 30891 80.91.229.3 (23 Sep 2013 06:47:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 06:47:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: pjb@informatimago.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 23 08:47:25 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VNzvZ-0006VC-GS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:47:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37845 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VNzvZ-00047G-4j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:47:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52529) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VNzvS-00046B-Fr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:47:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VNzvN-0002rA-JO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:47:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:48046) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VNzvN-0002r4-Av for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:47:13 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MTK00100FVILB00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:47:11 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MTK0015BG6NFH70@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:47:11 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87eh8gzee5.fsf@yandex.ru> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:163564 Archived-At: > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 01:21:22 +0300 > Cc: pjb@informatimago.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > What obscure keybindings? > > These ones: > > > Really, why should I have to read a tutorial > > that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure > > out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll > > the window?! Don't believe people who say they don't want to read the tutorial in the first place. Here's what the tutorial _really_ says about this (and has been saying for years): You can also use the PageUp and PageDn keys to move by screenfuls, if ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ your terminal has them, but you can edit more efficiently if you use C-v and M-v. * BASIC CURSOR CONTROL ---------------------- Moving from screenful to screenful is useful, but how do you move to a specific place within the text on the screen? There are several ways you can do this. You can use the arrow keys, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ but it's more efficient to keep your hands in the standard position and use the commands C-p, C-b, C-f, and C-n. This all is right at the beginning of the tutorial. But my basic point is that people who don't read tutorials should be right at home in Emacs wrt basic cursor motion commands, because they just work. > In all likelihood, a more experienced person who has many keychords > ingrained in their workflow would find it harder to adapt to new ones > than, say, a first-year CS student who's just picking up their first > serious editor. Clearly, cursor motion is not part of this issue. The only group of bindings for which I'm willing to accept such claims are the CUA copy/paste bindings and perhaps Undo/Redo, C-o for "Open" and C-s for "Save". Because everything else is anyway specific to the application. Try reading the full list of the key bindings in MS Word, for example.