Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Stefan Kangas]

eliz@gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) writes:

> branch: master
> commit 871c027080f1b4faf2d6b8cb0546fe7c5c9bb2db
> Author: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Commit: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
>
>     Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."
>
>     This reverts commit 731a26bb50aabeb2c0512f0e45b3cda76029a590.
>
>     We don't support rewriting history!
>     People who contributed to Emacs development should have their
>     contributions remain acknowledged forever, even if the files
>     to which they contributed are deleted at some point.

If this is the new policy, it would be a good idea to change the
description in ack.texi to reflect it:

  This list is intended to mention every contributor of a major package or
  feature we currently distribute; [...]

  @c Remove things that are no longer distributed.

Note that there have already been a number of such removals over the
years.  You might want to consider reverting these previous removals as
well in the interest of consistency.

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 07:21:04 -0700
> 
> eliz@gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) writes:
> 
> > branch: master
> > commit 871c027080f1b4faf2d6b8cb0546fe7c5c9bb2db
> > Author: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> > Commit: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> >
> >     Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."
> >
> >     This reverts commit 731a26bb50aabeb2c0512f0e45b3cda76029a590.
> >
> >     We don't support rewriting history!
> >     People who contributed to Emacs development should have their
> >     contributions remain acknowledged forever, even if the files
> >     to which they contributed are deleted at some point.
> 
> If this is the new policy, it would be a good idea to change the
> description in ack.texi to reflect it:

Done.

> Note that there have already been a number of such removals over the
> years.  You might want to consider reverting these previous removals as
> well in the interest of consistency.

Feel free to revert them as well.

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Kangas wrote:

>   @c Remove things that are no longer distributed.

For the record, that was the policy requested by rms years ago:

https://lists.gnu.org/r/emacs-devel/2008-12/msg00697.html

(Personally I see no value in keeping descriptions of things that aren't
in Emacs any more in ack.texi. I would of course keep the names in the
emacs.texi Acknowledgments section, although see my comment at the start
of that section about whether the whole thing should be removed for AUTHORS.)

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:17:36 -0400
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Stefan Kangas wrote:
> 
> >   @c Remove things that are no longer distributed.
> 
> For the record, that was the policy requested by rms years ago:
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/r/emacs-devel/2008-12/msg00697.html

Richard said they _can_ be deleted.  He didn't say they _must_ be
deleted.  Something that _can_ be done isn't a policy, not even a
request.

> (Personally I see no value in keeping descriptions of things that aren't
> in Emacs any more in ack.texi.

ack.texi doesn't describe the files, it describes the contributions of
those who wrote those files.  If someone made a contribution and we
delete the reference to that, the name of that person disappears from
the Emacs's hall of fame.  I see no reason for this ingratitude.  It
isn't like these references take up significant place or put some
burden on the maintainers (quite the opposite: the policy of removing
references of deleted files adds to maintenance burden).

> I would of course keep the names in the emacs.texi Acknowledgments
> section, although see my comment at the start of that section about
> whether the whole thing should be removed for AUTHORS.

The question where to keep the acknowledgments is IMO secondary; if
someone thinks it would be better to have ack.texi on a separate file,
I don't mind.  What's important to me is to keep the information about
people's contributions to Emacs.  This is our history and our legacy,
an integral part of our community.  We should know our heroes and what
they did for Emacs.

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > For the record, that was the policy requested by rms years ago:

  > https://lists.gnu.org/r/emacs-devel/2008-12/msg00697.html

I will fetch that article, but it will take till tomorrow before I see it.
It is surely in my old saved mail, but the information to find it
is not included in that URL.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I don't remember why I said, over 10 years ago, to delete entries in
ack.texi for code that has been deleted.  (BTW, ack.texi itself says
to do that.)

Perhaps I thought that it would be confusing to describe code
as present in Emacs if it is not in fact present now.

I don't have a strong opinion about it now.
But perhaps it would be desirable to move the acknowledgments
for deletec code to a second section which explicitly says it
is for code now deleted.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 871c027: Revert "* doc/emacs/ack.texi (Acknowledgments): Remove now deleted files."

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: rgm@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 00:16:49 -0400
> 
> I don't have a strong opinion about it now.
> But perhaps it would be desirable to move the acknowledgments
> for deletec code to a second section which explicitly says it
> is for code now deleted.

Having those contributions in a separate section would be perfectly
fine, thanks.