From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: More metaproblem Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:08:49 +0200 Message-ID: <837fy64lq6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20141203142859.24393.98673@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <20141203192721.GE12748@thyrsus.com> <547F6774.50700@cs.ucla.edu> <838uio5vjw.fsf@gnu.org> <20141203211447.GB15111@thyrsus.com> <871toge5zw.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <83388v6hsq.fsf@gnu.org> <87egsftgd5.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <83egsf3yci.fsf@gnu.org> <20141204230131.5eea855f@forcix> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417763338 26014 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 07:08:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 07:08:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, esr@thyrsus.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jorgen Schaefer Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 08:08:50 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwn0U-00032b-MN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:08:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49079 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwn0U-00062i-7k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 02:08:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38224) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwn0L-0005rr-7Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 02:08:45 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwn0G-0007wo-NY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 02:08:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:50521) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwn0G-0007wg-GA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 02:08:36 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NG300B00KWNJV00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:08:34 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NG300B5ZL69BV60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:08:34 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <20141204230131.5eea855f@forcix> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178886 Archived-At: > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:01:31 +0100 > From: Jorgen Schaefer > Cc: Karl Fogel , esr@thyrsus.com, > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 > On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 23:21:33 +0200 > Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 > > > It's precisely that I don't have time to be more active than I = am, > > > that leads me to want the project's development procedures to b= e > > > more conducive to developers like me -- there are many of them = out > > > there. > >=20 > > Then you don't have the right to whine about how the project is b= eing > > managed. >=20 > Do you realize how incredibly hostile this comes across as? It's not. Just try reading it with fresh eyes. In any case, it's no more hostile than Karl's attack. And it's the truth. > As a possible contributor, reading this, how inclined do you think = this > makes me to bring up possible stumbling blocks I might have when tr= ying > to contribute to Emacs? I hope the same as you were before. People bring up stumbling blocks here all the time, and I think we try to eliminate the ones that we can. > And let me tell you, my experience with *trying* to contribute to E= macs > so far mainly has left me with the impression that I might be able = to > contribute to Emacs *despite*, not *because*, of the best efforts o= f > "the management". But only if I work really hard for it. If you imply that "the management" consciously makes it harder for yo= u to contribute, then I certainly disagree and object. > Of course, I should not bring this up, because my time is limited a= nd I > am only interested in some minor contributions, so my opinion is > irrelevant, and I "don't have the right to whine" about this, right= ? No, that's not what I said. And it all depends what you say and how. For now, I have no idea yet what bothers you and why, so I really cannot comment. > | - ensure that the project=E2=80=99s =E2=80=98About=E2=80=99 page = and documentation include > | information about what types of contributions are most needed, = and > | how to contribute > | - acknowledge and celebrate contributions, so that people who do > | contribute feel appreciated and motivated to continue; > | - monitor questions in the project=E2=80=99s email discussion lis= t and/or > | forums, particularly those from newcomers, to ensure that they = are > | answered; > | - provide information to the project=E2=80=99s community about th= e project=E2=80=99s > | future development, perhaps in the form of a =E2=80=98road map= =E2=80=99 that lists > | the planned changes and enhancements; > | - ensure that documentation is up-to-date, and that aspects of th= e > | software that may be perceived as complex are explained clearly= ; > | and > | - find out what barriers participants encounter when making a > | contribution to the project, and take steps to minimise or > | eliminate them. I think we do most of that. > It is probably not obvious to you, but Emacs fails at every single = one > of those to various degrees. I disagree. But I'd be delighted to see more people participate in these efforts, and I'm sure so will Stefan and others. > And only somewhat related, for you especially, Eli, I can highly > recommend John E. Vincent's essay on _Software Empathy_.[2] That's simply unfair and uncalled for.