From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: VC mode and git Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 10:40:11 +0300 Message-ID: <837ftspcis.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83twx2xoc8.fsf@gnu.org> <87619hke3u.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <551A3F17.6020903@math.ntnu.no> <20150331085055.GA2871@acm.fritz.box> <87zj6tiko1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150331104935.GB2871@acm.fritz.box> <87y4mdi7tj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150331214347.GH2871@acm.fritz.box> <20150401103225.GA2633@acm.fritz.box> <87h9t080gx.fsf@javad.com> <83384jsx3o.fsf@gnu.org> <83pp7nrfdn.fsf@gnu.org> <83a8yqr226.fsf@gnu.org> <831tk2qvz5.fsf@gnu.org> <87384ii26v.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83wq1tptvp.fsf@gnu.org> <87pp7lhc9h.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83sichpqe9.fsf@gnu.org> <87ioddglu6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83a8yoq56m.fsf@gnu.org> <87384ghm1a.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1428133249 16045 80.91.229.3 (4 Apr 2015 07:40:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 07:40:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: sorganov@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 04 09:40:40 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YeIh3-0006sT-NH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 09:40:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36533 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YeIh2-0007mw-Ka for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 03:40:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33451) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YeIgj-0007mo-Ky for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 03:40:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YeIgg-00025K-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 03:40:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout26.012.net.il ([80.179.55.182]:61000) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YeIgg-000259-1O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 03:40:14 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout26.012.net.il by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NM900N00U68WJ00@mtaout26.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 10:41:23 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NM900D84UOZFSA0@mtaout26.012.net.il>; Sat, 04 Apr 2015 10:41:23 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87384ghm1a.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.182 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:184853 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: sorganov@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 07:41:53 +0900 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Teaching people new things often requires to start without rigor, > > because otherwise you risk losing your audience. Being > > "technically correct", but confusing instead of explanatory is not > > helpful. > > Eli, you can't have it both ways. When I use the shorthand common in > the git community and defined in the glossary, you excoriate me for > lack of rigor (in different but equivalent words). It's a judgment call. In this case, I think using a shorthand only confuses things, since "commit" and "commit object" are really very different beasts. By "lack of rigor" I meant omitting details of secondary importance to the issue at hand; confusion between 2 entities is IMO not one of them, at least not in this case. > > What they did say is (a) they don't like investing an inordinate > > amount of time and effort into studying Git, and (b) they would like > > to keep their previous workflows as much as possible. > > > So if we want to help them become proficient, we need to go with them > > and educate them while trying to honor these 2 desires. > > My opinion that is that given what Richard and Alan apparently > consider to be "inordinate effort", we are unlikely to get to a point > where they know enough to make an informed decision. Could be. In which case they will stop at the level of a "cookbook user", who memorizes commands without deep understanding of their real effect, and instead relies on some simplified mental models. Not ideal, I agree, but not bad, either. And then it's just a possibility; there's still hope they will move ahead at some point. > > What he did became clear, even to me, after he showed the information > > we requested. > > It did? It's not clear to me. I still haven't seen an explanation of > how he ended up with a ton of modified files that he didn't touch, or > how he's going to get past that safely. We've been through that: those are files from the merge already in the index, ready to be committed when the conflicts are resolved. > > > I wish you would write more posts like that. > > > > Thanks, I'm trying. > > You're welcome. I hope you know there was absolutely zero sarcasm in > the compliment. Nope, taken at face value. > There is no question in my mind that you have been the most > level-headed contributor to this thread, although I disagree (even > now) with some of the positions you've taken. Disagreements are expected, due to different perspectives and the fact that I don't know about Git as much as you do. But at least I gathered enough stuff in this thread to fix GitQuickStartForEmacsDevs, to which I'd appreciate comments from everyone who has a moment to spare.