From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: sqlite3 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 15:06:45 +0200 Message-ID: <837dc6j9ui.fsf@gnu.org> References: <874k7ljwkr.fsf@gnus.org> <87fsr5cuzq.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <878rwx8mdn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zgpdhw4d.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F63580E-FF58-45D0-9DBB-389ED64C0F11@mit.edu> <83v8zzw867.fsf@gnu.org> <87wnk7kkxp.fsf@red-bean.com> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29754"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, qhong@mit.edu, rms@gnu.org, eric@ericabrahamsen.net, cesar.mena@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, kfogel@red-bean.com To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 15 15:07:44 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mxUwZ-0007X9-M7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 15:07:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47022 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxUwX-0006Bp-Pp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 09:07:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57176) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxTzy-00022C-0p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 08:07:12 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=47876 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxTzv-00070h-H4; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 08:07:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=z5tm9TjJqOAmQocEldGT7DASYRGg4ET08aP7uTCwj9I=; b=Ng6zke4jHIZZ N+BX8fTKmepSnkCkHliy+oeS39S7o05SfKVkQgy76tGk1GI1Z1uWqQylPKJ4bigc8cvF7orV1zrXA 4l5us5+rpvf03R940+5xwDom1VLK8O1JAUdCqsjhuUrKlsyThB7NFbsDjgU0upEbipIVgc5jvBFvm CJI2Rr7lQ7b1EYPMdtCXRqNOZMH0X/Yh/ngJ0hbuTctc8ccs6ZnavHmArgc2NGmP7c/lXQ9dndjus t36DGPQapYVTPUbCARLnaDZ00CY3hyFfiaah6j1mJvFU738ZlBzKM0Tc3d0s6KcGP43dhFD1geqNF MDWQLfLWDGqyRH7JA1+s4Q==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4801 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxTzt-0003hU-Ni; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 08:07:06 -0500 In-Reply-To: (message from Alan Mackenzie on Tue, 14 Dec 2021 22:01:33 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:282040 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 22:01:33 +0000 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Qiantan Hong , rms@gnu.org, > eric@ericabrahamsen.net, cesar.mena@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > luangruo@yahoo.com > From: Alan Mackenzie > > I question the wisdom of adding more inessential stuff to the Emacs core. > To be perfectly blunt, it is bloat. To be perfectly blunt, please leave that worry to Lars and myself. That's why we are here, that's why we invest such an inordinate amount of time working on Emacs (and on top of that, more time to participate in this futile dispute). > I'm not saying that sqlite shouldn't be added to core. But I am > saying it should be questioned carefully, particularly by people who > are familiar with it (which I'm not). We've examined that question and decided it could be a good idea. Please bear with us, as there's no real reasons yet to seriously question the decision. > I feel sqlite has been added to the core, merged into master, with > indecent haste, and without due reflection. Your feelings are wrong, and disclosing them here is unfair. You have no real evidence to back that up, and without that it is just an unfounded accusation. The fact that both maintainers agree on this should already tell you that you should check your feelings very well before you decide they are justified enough to make them public. > This cannot be good. I think there are knowledgeable people here > who are against this novelty and I think their expertise has been > disregarded. That cannot be good for the Emacs project. Nothing was disregarded. Hearing different opinions and disagreeing with them is not the same as disregard. Please don't accuse us in crimes we didn't commit. > In my mail program, mutt, I load my entire mail collection into memory > every time I start it. That's around 140,000 mails, it's over 2 GB, and > it loads and threads in 7 or 8 seconds. I don't know how long it would > take to load into gnus, but I suspect it would be much longer. What is the memory footprint of Emacs after loading those 2GB? And why do you want everyone to have to keep such large mail collections in memory? Not everyone has enough RAM installed to afford that. > > I could of course try out the existing 3rd-party sqlite3 library > > for Emacs; it's not like there's a huge barrier here. But still, > > that would mean adding a dependency that I don't currently have. > > Whereas if the facility were built into Emacs, the barrier would > > be lower, so I'd be more likely to experiment with selective > > loading of such datasets. Presumably, the same argument applies > > to others' applications as well, and we'd have the further > > advantage that everyone would be using a common facility, so it > > could be improved collaboratively. > > Yes, those are the plusses. The downsides are the bloat (i don't know by > how much), the dilution in Emacs's purpose (it's even less the "do one > thing and do it well" than it was), and I suppose there might even be > negative security implications (it's a database after all). Also people > will be forced to learn new tools, both inside and outside of Emacs. I > fear it will create another elite in the Emacs project, those who have > mastered sqlite, similar to, for example, those who can read and write > the cl- library. There's no reason to fear this, no more than you'd fear that librsvg will facilitate an "elite" who can "speak SVG" to create images, and the "plebs" who don't. Frankly, I'm amazed at the bru-ha-ha this change triggered, and keep being amazed each day anew. Who'd know that Emacs is such a scandalous environment?