From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2022 14:52:03 +0200 Message-ID: <837d07yljg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <25a8a3a6-81c8-3fbc-434d-fb1b24ae1d62@gmail.com> <83cza48lxe.fsf@gnu.org> <83leop2v0d.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17557"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: akrl@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 07 13:53:24 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1os1cv-0004MK-W8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2022 13:53:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1os1by-0000xB-20; Mon, 07 Nov 2022 07:52:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1os1bv-0000q5-S8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2022 07:52:19 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1os1bv-0002qN-Cv; Mon, 07 Nov 2022 07:52:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=8Ifhh2HfU0sG8jTxBipywicDbaVzvDBn8FD5FsqYJHo=; b=DfB6KrSui40h Isj475IYhxLtFePQbU5F6CUWsgb9MR9VlGifg2RGGJDqcJdj4/TDllyg8iP4+9elE8rovssZV4hT5 6BQit894cddrD79OPFnmmE1aaIqMTDLoNaJmfVq2syiaefNUpo7tIOvwEP6lWE0VULGcYET/gwt2a lILb5KhAn8kof56/3SfknaKfBuGVynzDp2sGZBs3y+z8DxAyQLDr6lBvVdrHpfsIiZ6CIgwIZp2tI ro70mMZloInbD33nMZSgBhoRBJJesA/IGt0/tBaVspMasSvgFGvvMMhFl66Hv1MY6cLd4EF8itGja hnk3zYfKsPa9aMOQSBq7zw==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1os1bu-0005vj-6z; Mon, 07 Nov 2022 07:52:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Mon, 07 Nov 2022 02:47:34 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299293 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: akrl@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2022 02:47:34 -0500 > > > > That is unreasonable. People have been installing very large changes > > > just lately. > > > No, they haven't, not lately anyway. > > I think package-vc was just installed in master this weekend package-vc is a new Lisp package with a small number of new commands which provide new functionality. The package doesn't touch any internals, and thus cannot have any effect on any commands other than those it adds. And the discussion of merging this package's branch started more than a month ago. (The branch itself is much older.) > and noverlays a few days ago. The decision to install noverlays was made in September, and since then Stefan, Gerd, Matt, and others worked on putting the final polish on it. The branch itself was reviewed and discussed long ago. > > It is a minor feature, indeed, but its effect on low-level code is > > quite significant and could potentially destabilize Emacs. > > It adds a feature that nothing in Emacs actually uses. > It is potentially significant, but it won't affect anything > if you don't use it. I think you have exaggerated a .01 into .99. I don't think I exaggerated. Here's the list of the aspects of the patch which I think make it incomplete and potentially risky: . it changes oblookup_considering_shorthand in fundamental ways, which affects all of its callers, notably intern and unintern; . it includes unresolved issues: how to handle this with natively-compiled code and with modules (I personally don't yet have a clear idea whether and how to do any of these two); . it affects file handlers: they will need to support the new feature (and such a support is not yet in the patch, so it will have to be written and tested); . there's no lispref documentation for this Finally, there's nothing important enough in this feature that we should hurry with installing it. It will take time to figure out the aspects we didn't and complete the implementation and the docs. Given the short time till branching, I don't see how we could make it, and I definitely don't see why we should hurry. Why is it a problem to have it on master starting one month from now? > Basically, you haven't convinced me that there is a basis for this > conclusion. Given the above, I think it's the other way around: you should convince me.