From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 19:40:22 +0300 Message-ID: <835zd2bf2h.fsf@gnu.org> References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83pnbddrfd.fsf@gnu.org> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftc9dm07.fsf@gnu.org> <0d678371-2df7-519e-5ec0-7e26bfa6ea34@gmail.com> <11dff979-002e-e03e-2e3e-cdb09fcc409e@yandex.ru> <8017be3d-a4ed-61eb-9bdb-9a95c77a0698@gmail.com> <3adf65ae-fd0d-4fee-adfd-e11d39a148fc@yandex.ru> <01e211df-acfb-fb8a-eedc-7cb439b64cd8@yandex.ru> <57491476-b7d1-ed1e-9eaf-bc45db607ae8@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="113867"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 11 18:41:46 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBUu-000TUZ-An for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 18:41:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44802 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBUt-0006DA-BU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:41:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55430) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBTv-0004y0-Cj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:40:43 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40932) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBTu-0002bT-FR; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:40:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2364 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBTh-0005mk-JA; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:40:30 -0400 In-Reply-To: <57491476-b7d1-ed1e-9eaf-bc45db607ae8@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Mon, 11 May 2020 06:06:49 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249821 Archived-At: > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 06:06:49 +0300 > Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > If there were ever some package we want to refer people to > but certainly would never want to move it into the core, > this issue would not arise. > > We don't want to move every package to the core. If by "we" you mean the Emacs project, then we don't actually have a common shared view of this. You evidently want to keep most of the packages on ELPA, and maybe even move out to ELPA packages already in core. My opinion is almost the exact opposite, Stefan is in-between (perhaps closer to your opinion than to mine), and there are a plethora of other opinions. these differences of opinion between us are well known, and we are still debating. In fact, at least for me, we are now farther from an agreement than I thought, given the copyright assignment controversy and the fact that we waive our coding standards for ELPA packages. > So I think deferring the step of asking for copyright assignment until we actually want to do the move to the core. We can track the packages without assignments the same way we've been tracking the "excepted" files in the repository. We can maybe "track" them in the sense that we will know that copyright assignments are not being collected for certain packages, but in practice this makes it impossible to ever include such packages, because getting the legal papers signed many moons after the contribution becomes harder and harder as time passes. We have live examples of such difficulties, and had a lot of them in the past. Given that experience, I don't see how we can in good faith expect to succeed in getting the assignments in some distant future unless we collect them today. It sounds to me like burying our heads in the sand. > The clear benefit is the bigger choice of packages, vetted by us, and available for users to install right away. Given that the proposal is not to ask for copyright assignment, the coding standards are already "not imposed" but only "recommended" (read: waived), and Stefan and others seem to say that even cleanness of design and implementation and compatibility with the overall Emacs design are out of our hands, I really fail to see what would be the meaning of "vetted by us" in this context. That "us" is certainly not the Emacs project. To me, it sounds like we are being asked to open a MELPA clone, which makes no sense to me.