From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:00:00 +0300 Message-ID: <834mvttgsf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <54193A70.9020901@member.fsf.org> <87lhp6h4zb.fsf@panthera.terpri.org> <87k34qo4c1.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54257C22.2000806@yandex.ru> <83iokato6x.fsf@gnu.org> <87wq8pwjen.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837g0ptnlj.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3yxwdr6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx3tmi3t.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1411819252 19330 80.91.229.3 (27 Sep 2014 12:00:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 12:00:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: handa@gnu.org, stephen@xemacs.org, dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 27 14:00:45 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XXqg8-0001kV-VH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:00:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55551 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXqg8-00019I-Mc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 08:00:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53039) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXqfx-00017l-KD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 08:00:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXqfs-0007ZJ-7s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 08:00:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:54824) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXqfl-0007RZ-Oq; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 08:00:21 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NCK008006MR0I00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:00:15 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NCK007PB6OEUU80@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:00:15 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87tx3tmi3t.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:174739 Archived-At: > From: David Kastrup > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Kenichi Handa , dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:13:26 +0200 > > However, the problems specific to R->L typesetting are mostly not in the > character set and string handling area but rather concern the display > algorithms where we already found that supporting all the functionality > of Emacs is not well-supported by industry-standard solutions like > Pango. Only people who don't speak any of the R2L languages can seriously claim that using Pango/Cairo is the way to support R2L in Emacs. There are just too many quirks that Emacs needs for user satisfaction that an external GP renderer can never provide. Using Pango also means you are at the mercy of their developers as far as bidi is concerned. And it doesn't help that the development in that area is not really "alive and kicking" as one would hope; e.g., the latest changes in UAX#9, released with Unicode 6.3 a year ago, are still not supported in Pango or FriBidi. Besides, using Pango means no bidi in text-mode frames. (Some people say this should be delegated to bidi-aware terminal emulators, like PuTTY and some Linux-based emulator whose name I don't remember, but that's again only because those people don't use the R2L scripts. Doing bidi display for TTY Emacs this way is simply unworkable.)