From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 21:25:41 +0300 Message-ID: <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31051"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 28 20:26:38 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVHoL-0007u2-Mb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 20:26:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59286 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVHoK-0002OD-Dc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:26:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60182) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVHnY-0001Ow-Gg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:25:48 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54000) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVHnX-00055k-Ub; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:25:47 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4427 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVHnT-0003Lw-CX; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:25:46 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Alan Mackenzie on Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:25:56 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275718 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:25:56 +0000 > Cc: Phil Sainty , joaotavora@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > I thought that large features weren't being accepted for Emacs 28 any > more? These "shorthands" are a gigantic feature which disrupt our way > of developing Emacs. The shorthands don't disrupt anything unless they are used. And using them is completely opt-in, and intended for specific situations where it is justified. Of course, any feature can be abused, but the blame is on those who abuse it. > Can we please delay the release of Emacs 28.1 until we have these tool > enhancements in place? I see no reason for such a delay, given that our tools are already imperfect. We should improve our tools, of course, but there's nothing in shorthands that justifies delaying Emacs 28.1. > And until that point, have a moratorium on using shorthands? I'm not aware of any plans to use shorthands in Emacs itself. People talk and discuss these possibilities, and that's okay. But that's just talk at this point, certainly for Emacs 28. > > > Is whatever we're gaining actually worth the resulting obfuscation? > > > Time will tell. It currently sounds like its worth it, but as with > > any such feature, we could be wrong. > > And if we are wrong, what then? Then we will avoid using it, or maybe even recommend that no one does. And perhaps replace shorthands with something better. But we aren't there anymore, and I think your sense of a catastrophe is unjustified, if not exaggerated. > > They are not the real reason, they are just the way to explain the > > feature in simple terms. The real reason is to make namespace > > management easier. > > I don't think, on balance, it will do this. Time will tell.