From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 17:37:45 +0200 Message-ID: <834k6mdu7q.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87zgoeo91m.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6geo4h8.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735m6o349.fsf@yahoo.com> <87pmpamlon.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15521"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 02 16:38:37 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n42wO-0003ur-UP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 16:38:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57992 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n42wN-0005p9-2s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 10:38:35 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50998) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n42vY-0003ms-Gw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 10:37:44 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=56594 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n42vY-0006hl-54; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 10:37:44 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=G8YNCIInUXqxDFFK5gC5ZNT2MJXNsY+yUuSnJcDkohU=; b=d6QLIJvW7TtgEPsB/WJL DyQG/XwHgp/9MYTaNGxoQXf0EBL2gEBHhqwuCT4xx18jpHsjL3iKOJFCYPtBfNQiJZ4hrIPSSk/7n 23W3UjmPgcxsuHtfVQa+o3HM/S7offqMo/L/5pZEJv4mdXkNsTiKsIYzur6D848928emmGsusAbfD yAunj+MwpW1lR3DDJXk1yPW28o21q54JpTir0AMEvOqEgpRd0jkiIb8MaYMVXKjadwxrUmVg0Gjpq +kQdX+/h4XDBsQxdfEa5m9typ7MSxk+bismIvCE3jgc2oCTISoDPa289tN1/MzkuBof3pKzQS2dBe dNe1h0LEWo5G6g==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3198 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n42vY-0005v6-2r; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 10:37:44 -0500 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sun, 2 Jan 2022 10:27:28 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283920 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 10:27:28 -0500 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." > writes: > > > FWIW I completely agree with this.  Custom system is a good idea, > > and it should exist; however it has a very long way yet to achieve > > it's purpose.  It is nowhere near JetBrains software's isolation > > of Java from user.  It needs a lot more work.  It is an unfinished system. > > Agreed, but I'd invite you to be more concrete. If you are proposing a > redesign, fine, but we'd need volunteers to do that. If you have > specific proposals for how to improve customize, they are also welcome. Improving Customize (or any other major Emacs infrastructure) is always welcome, of course. But I'd like to point out a potential confusion or misunderstanding between the participants in this thread: I think people might mix Customize's user-facing interface -- the forms, the buttons, the menus in Custom buffers, etc. -- with calling Customize functions from Lisp and with its implementation code. When people say here they think Custom has a long way to achieve its purpose, which of those two they allude to? Customize was designed to be easy on the user from the UI POV, it wasn't designed to be easy from the implementation POV. Nor was it designed to be easy to understand its Lisp forms, because the assumption was that people who'd use Customize will rarely if ever look at the forms it produces when you save customizations.