From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 08:57:11 +0300 Message-ID: <834jisqvgo.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkd07gbu.fsf@dataswamp.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3990"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 15 07:57:45 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qru8F-0000pd-Mm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:57:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qru7z-0007Xp-PU; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 01:57:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qru7y-0007Xe-G5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 01:57:26 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qru7x-0001EJ-Do; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 01:57:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=vTimtx+A/SKDYplYGXiw/Eaj+H8sbcpY0cqGh6yOygM=; b=cj0EmvVXDecM aIlHthLnNSCCSiYnO5bt8Nz9/TbtfwV5W8X9+WpySAQuGxwf/+mg/+wOT9L85k9EejAPBtM40E4ki nFYS3cvyq4ukLe3QCRcMuL7WK/BXiOmsDS5i15JTKeDLPpwOKL05npX5KYXSFOEatVcMrmwph2aPC 5vqp4dFjlckAmQe61vHnCzm/IErAtKOb7sZKYoMJQACqNKtP8SE3oRhl1kxVwi/d0Hpzo1CbJhBs/ 0d4UdyRMHIYiE/KaZbd44fB51Rx1ODv8C8XAxmbVLcyN0xtcnlc0rgejNTY1fyu/tj7Dm8Ll2vOsX uYSxGwhqOek62BxuQSX+hg==; In-Reply-To: <87bkd07gbu.fsf@dataswamp.org> (message from Emanuel Berg on Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:46:45 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311474 Archived-At: > From: Emanuel Berg > Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:46:45 +0200 > > Richard Stallman wrote: > > >> 466 out of 1637 Lisp files in Emacs require cl-lib (some of > >> them only during compilation, i.e. they use only the > >> macros). > > > > If a file uses cl only during compilation (for macros) it is > > not much of a problem. How many use it at run time? > > > > I reported one file a few weeks ago that is always (or > > nearly always) loaded and uses cl-lib, forcin it to be > > nearly always loaded too. That should be fixed. > > But if it is shipped and included with vanilla Emacs, which it > is, how can it be either any more or any less (dis)encouraged > for use than anything else included on the same premises? > > If something isn't part of vanilla Emacs one can maybe say > "see if you can do without it, because if you use it, it has > to be brought in externally adding complexity" - perhaps. > > But it _is_ included so in terms of technology it is on the > same level as everything else included. Are we gonna have one > big toolbox containing a bunch of tools, but on certain tools > put on little stickers saying "don't use this"? This thread is not for casual users of Emacs, it is for active Emacs developers and maintainers. So please just read it and don't try to chime in, as that doesn't help.