From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:30:50 +0200 Message-ID: <834jhkq1jp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87fs15d0uv.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83edgppki9.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyw9cpj9.fsf@dataswamp.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27157"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 17 08:31:48 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r3tKN-0006u2-80 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 08:31:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3tJe-0004xi-9w; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 02:31:02 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3tJZ-0004x6-N2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 02:30:58 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3tJY-0002m4-Nx; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 02:30:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=UuQVKNeWXt12q4rqIFvYFeCGTdZXYiBnTfNB4nB1iXg=; b=A2Tdb/mHOOIF HYUhIZFXHp+FccZSrxKMuXdDo5ZZrmDprgw7rEK9GtpWfG5B727uYTkuqepkNxbGyPBa69J17YnOM Mhm4v7aok/11G0W/XVp0Xa7+8MLoITqWpGTBT/D2ryCt8wT3QTJdfsaOKLZWwnxQNY3L0ieo+nPTj OJFSW8+hnqXXwgSHOyTD/FS0UqFEhG520wOk8B/HqjFq2Hj3LGsIhWF3gyLi9uHz3HPvVi1fTveBq /aOEzZiWrByej19BI8moC/5bz2tmmaZv/ADLVo/TOaEL7zdOttQfeUxZ73wK4h892rJORlThinnmB 4xzz+WeBHECZ6Bc+yTgZpg==; In-Reply-To: <87cyw9cpj9.fsf@dataswamp.org> (message from Emanuel Berg on Thu, 16 Nov 2023 23:16:26 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312857 Archived-At: > From: Emanuel Berg > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 23:16:26 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> There are, according to the below code [last], 13 011 hits > >> for cl-lib in the Emacs source. For pcase, there are 2168. > >> So there is no kicking that out either. > > > > Nonsense. We already had such large replacements, and did > > that without any trouble, though gradually. Cases in point: > > setq-local, defvar-keymap, and others. > > > > So if we have an alternative that we like and is easy to > > use, we can decide to replace pcase with it, and then do it, > > one case at a time. > > We don't have alternatives that are better than cl-lib and > pcase, and their widespread use shows it. First, I was talking about pcase, not the rest. Second, I said "IF we have an alternatives that we like". It goes without saying that we don't have such an alternative for pcase at this time, and maybe never will. My point was a simple one: IF we have an alternative that we like, THEN we can decide to make these replacements, and will have no problems whatsoever doing so, as we have done in other cases. IOW, I was only objecting to your claim that such a replacement is impossible due to the sheer quantity of pcase uses in the tree, not to any other arguments in this thread. > This whole discussion is just disrespectful, polarizing and > alienating anti-cl-lib and now anti-pcase for no reason and > with no alternatives. Nonsense. There's no disrespect in discussing the various advanced ELisp facilities and their impact on our coding conventions. > It is completely unrealistic to think anyone will write > replacements for cl-lib and pcase If so, you have nothing to worry about: the above is just an academic discussion that will never have any practical effect. So please relax and cool down. > But if that is what you are hoping for, why don't we revisit > this discussion if and when that happens? The only thing I'm hoping for is for Emacs to get better and continue its development. If that is wrong, maybe you want to step up and replace me as Emacs maintainer?