From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Bundling GNU ELPA packages Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 21:47:15 +0200 Message-ID: <83389wt8l8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <878ujowbnh.fsf@thinkpad-t440p.tsdh.org> <87sihwm8jj.fsf@thinkpad-t440p.tsdh.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1415303306 9792 80.91.229.3 (6 Nov 2014 19:48:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 19:48:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tassilo Horn Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 06 20:48:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XmT2Y-0004bP-G1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 20:48:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55802 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XmT2Y-0004MG-5t for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:48:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40345) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XmT2A-0004Kw-II for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:48:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XmT1a-0003oM-IE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:47:54 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:53803) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XmT1a-0003k5-B0; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:47:18 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NEM00O00U0GHM00@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 21:40:02 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NEM00OWUUMPWZ10@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Thu, 06 Nov 2014 21:40:02 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87sihwm8jj.fsf@thinkpad-t440p.tsdh.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.180 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:176480 Archived-At: > From: Tassilo Horn > Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2014 20:30:08 +0100 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > What I don't understand is why we don't move org, gnus, and other > built-in packages which aren't "super-core" (i.e., not everybody > needs them) from emacs.git to elpa.git? Then all points above still > apply, and emacs releases are a bit more lightweight. There's no direct relation between moving packages between repositories and excluding them from the release tarballs. We can have one, but not the other. What is the advantage of having a more lightweight tarball? Disk space is no longer at premium, and Emacs is a relatively small package by modern standards. > I mean, for fast-evolving packages like org and company, if emacs > 25.1 bundles version X, the next day version X+1 is available from > ELPA anyway. Yes, but then installing a tarball gives me Org and Gnus etc., even if they are slightly outdated. If we go your way, I don't have them at all, and need a live, reliable, and uncensored network connection to get them; until I do, my Emacs is crippled or might not even start at all. That's a net loss. When I install XEmacs, I always want the "sumo" package, for that very reason. > The only downside I can see is that users upgrading from Emacs 24 to 25 > might get startup errors because formerly built-in packages aren't > anymore. But that can be documented easily: > > If you used the built-in org-mode version in Emacs < 25, do > > 1. emacs -Q > 2. M-x package-install RET org RET > 3. Now you can restart emacs without -Q There are only disadvantages here. You add conditions that, if they are not satisfied, will interfere with the upgrade. It's a nuisance for no good reason.