From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 10:26:21 +0300 Message-ID: <8335ven7tu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31499"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 09:27:28 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1laZAu-00084K-1w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:27:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35944 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laZAt-0004rD-66 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 03:27:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60626) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laZAD-0004Qs-7K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 03:26:45 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33738) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laZAC-0004va-BO; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 03:26:44 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4418 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1laZA9-0003lM-4o; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 03:26:42 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:48:00 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268357 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:48:00 -0500 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > And the target audience of help-for-help is probably at least as > > ignorant as myself about the difference between DEL and Delete. > > As you say, this is an old problem. For example `C-h k ' > here gives a help screen that cryptically says "DEL (translated from > )". I suppose most users have no idea what that means, other > than some vague notion that "DEL is clearly just the same as backspace". I don't see any good way around this. This is basic Emacs terminology, for which we did everything we could to document and clearly explain what we mean. Users should master this terminology as soon as they can, exactly as they need to know what is a "window", a "buffer", and "yank". The tutorial introduces this terminology, including the relation to , for this very reason. > I would prefer that would just be printed as such, > everywhere. You can't, because not every keyboard has that key. And because users still can confuse that with the BS (a.k.a. "C-h") key. And because we have normal-erase-is-backspace-mode. > > Perhaps the easiest fix would be to handle Delete same as Backspace here. > > Yes, that could alleviate the problem in this particular case. Please don't, that would be a horribly wrong change. Like making C-f move backwards. (Sometimes I wish there were some things in Emacs that would be considered immutable, to the degree that even talking about changing them is unimaginable. Unrealistic, I know, but one can hope.)