From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:20:15 +0300 Message-ID: <831u4gj6f4.fsf@gnu.org> References: <523ED74D.4030205@online.de> <87ioxs4zc9.fsf@informatimago.com> <87k3i8vj93.fsf@yandex.ru> <83bo3kk6hh.fsf@gnu.org> <87eh8gzee5.fsf@yandex.ru> <871u4go1bp.fsf@gmail.com> <523FD9B2.9030304@online.de> <834n9cj9s3.fsf@gnu.org> <523FEE11.3050703@online.de> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1379924419 25307 80.91.229.3 (23 Sep 2013 08:20:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:20:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 23 10:20:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VO1NU-0006Ym-RT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:20:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38714 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO1NU-0006uR-9y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 04:20:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51366) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO1NL-0006u8-Ny for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 04:20:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO1NG-0006lx-DQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 04:20:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:48724) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO1NG-0006j9-5R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 04:20:06 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MTK00A00KHGQG00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:20:04 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MTK00AYJKHGCX80@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:20:04 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <523FEE11.3050703@online.de> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:163569 Archived-At: > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:30:25 +0200 > From: Andreas R=C3=B6hler > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 > Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii: > >> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200 > >> From: Andreas R=C3=B6hler > >> > >> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman: > >>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow ke= ys on the > >>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-) > >> > >> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also sp= reads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people. > >> > >> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago. > >> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it d= ifficult too. > > > > When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago? > > >=20 >=20 > At the very first screen C-v is presented. > Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to both= er beginners with this. > While later, certainly, it's preferable. >=20 > Next screen tells about C-p, C-n > That must have been changed very recently ;) Do you always read only the first 2 pages?