From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: More metaproblem Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:35:59 +0200 Message-ID: <831tod0xcg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83egsf3yci.fsf@gnu.org> <87iohq6nvn.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <83mw722eit.fsf@gnu.org> <87egse56hb.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <87oarhzt87.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <20141205222416.GH7784@thyrsus.com> <834mt93d4k.fsf@gnu.org> <20141206045851.GA14890@thyrsus.com> <83sigt1ax1.fsf@gnu.org> <20141206113557.GF19750@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417869394 2038 80.91.229.3 (6 Dec 2014 12:36:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:36:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: esr@thyrsus.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 06 13:36:27 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XxEb5-0002Gg-4A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 13:36:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54229 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxEb4-0008J9-Nu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 07:36:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60581) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxEal-0008Ci-IF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 07:36:11 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxEah-0006Vc-2S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 07:36:07 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:57684) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxEag-0006VB-M8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 07:36:03 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NG500O00UQ3V900@mtaout29.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:33:45 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NG500KVEUW9MH30@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:33:45 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <20141206113557.GF19750@thyrsus.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.185 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179169 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 06:35:57 -0500 > From: "Eric S. Raymond" > Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii : > > I challenge you to ask and then post the results here, including > > similar results for other Free Software projects. > > Wow. You are truly a *master* of subtle obstructionism. The second > clause in that sentence was a work of art, leaving you wiggle room to > disregard any survey numbers I might to bring back on grounds of > insufficient breadth of sample. I didn't say anything about the sample size. Please don't put words in my mouth, I'm perfectly capable of expressing my intent myself. All I asked for is to compare whatever level of dissatisfaction you find on a feed which I never visit to something similar for other projects. I've seen enough talkback forums to know that the level of flames there could be utterly unrelated to reality. > And camouflaging this maneuver as an appeal to scientific > objectivity - genius, sheer genius! > > Why, if I were a more naive person, I might have immediately gone > beavering off to #emacs, collected several hundred expressions of > frustration, and brought them back here only to have them > high-handedly dismissed. What's to prevent me from interpreting this as a camouflaged attempt to get off your high horse, because you have no real data to back up your claims? > That general tactic of "I will disregard you until you put in > an amount of work I have pre-defined to be effectively impossible", > yes. An old favorite on this list, a hardy perennial. Very effective > for resisting any kind of innovation. The tactic to invent non-existing intentions to your opponents and then label those inventions with derogatory labels is also well-known. Not very effective here, but known. > This is how Emacs dies. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. Emacs doesn't die. Look at the commit rate, if you really want to do an objective analysis. Not many live projects can compare with what we have.