From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Confused by y-or-n-p Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 17:01:49 +0200 Message-ID: <831rf0d9uq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <834kkcr1eo.fsf@gnu.org> <43b24209-fa65-0e26-7cbd-f99175a7ffd8@gmx.at> <87wnx7j5is.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83im8qnyca.fsf@gnu.org> <83bleinmse.fsf@gnu.org> <56435592-d2d0-5fb6-977f-01e1931da835@gmx.at> <87k0t38g1z.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83czyvkts6.fsf@gnu.org> <87bleetirr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87y2hhri3n.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pn2tkfg8.fsf@gnu.org> <871rf7ippu.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83a6trg6mc.fsf@gnu.org> <87im8f951f.fsf@gnus.org> <83lfdacapo.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16737"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rudalics@gmx.at, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, juri@linkov.net To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 04 16:03:44 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kwROa-0004EX-Fj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 16:03:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47546 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwROY-0005rL-RL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:03:43 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51068) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwRNB-0004GM-0Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:02:18 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35952) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwRN8-0002Lz-KA; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:02:16 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2408 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kwRMt-0004FM-A7; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:01:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Mon, 04 Jan 2021 00:17:28 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:262430 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: rudalics@gmx.at, larsi@gnus.org, juri@linkov.net, > drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 00:17:28 -0500 > > > However, I see no reason to single out emacs-devel as the only medium > > suitable for such discussions. The Emacs issue tracker is another > > valid medium for that. > > It may be "valid" in principle, but it is no a wise choice for changes > in the Emacs command interface. If we want to be confident that users > will notice plans for changes, and say if they object, before the > change is in a release, we are obliged to help users notice. Users don't track emacs-devel, either. In fact, most users nowadays don't like to use mailing lists at all. Moreover, the effect of a change is not necessarily clear from the discussions, not unless the reader knows enough about Emacs internals. So I don't see how forcing discussions to happen on emacs-devel will reach the goal of helping users notice important changes and object in time. It might help you personally, and a few others, but that's a far cry from "users", IMO. > > > * Some time later -- it need not be soon -- poll the users and see who > > > likes it _and why_. Maybe change the default. > > > Volunteers are welcome to step forward and take upon themselves the > > responsibilities for conducting such polls. Failing that, I don't see > > how we can promise doing this as a matter of routine. > > That's not difficult. People who want to make the new behavior the default > will be motivated to conduct the inquiry. If they are motivated enough, we don't need any rules for that, we just should continue behaving as we did, because starting a discussion on emacs-devel about any issue related to Emacs is always possible (and happens already).