From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 09:26:24 +0300 Message-ID: <831r64yhyn.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> <64ec57fc-4cd0-4e4a-1139-de1c3ddc8d82@yandex.ru> <83sfylykhx.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf4dyhel.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5521"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: philipk@posteo.net, danflscr@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, john@yates-sheets.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 04 08:28:34 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mMPAI-0001FE-OZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 08:28:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47684 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMPAH-00064N-IK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 02:28:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53250) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMP8L-0002Su-Ri for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 02:26:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51484) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMP8J-0000i2-FX; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 02:26:31 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3958 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMP8B-0006ZT-Jw; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 02:26:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Dmitry Gutov on Sat, 4 Sep 2021 04:32:50 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273840 Archived-At: > Cc: philipk@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, john@yates-sheets.org, > danflscr@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 04:32:50 +0300 > > On 03.09.2021 15:26, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > We are, I hope, interested mainly in making Emacs evolve and adapt to > > the changing times and preferences. I consider the way of introducing > > changes as optional first to be a better way towards that goal, > > including the goal to change the defaults. And I explained in so many > > words why and how. How is that side-stepping the issue at hand? > > The goals of having Emacs "evolve and adapt" and having it stay the same > are inherently at odds. Of course. But Emacs doesn't "stay the same", at least not in the literal meaning of the word. So I still don't understand what are you trying to say here. > > Show me a project where things are different, where the lead > > developers cannot say "I don't like" (with arguments, which you forget > > to mention, or prefer to dismiss or disregard, but they are still > > there), and that's it. This is how Free Software projects are being > > developed, at least IME. Emacs is not an outlier, it's right there in > > the mainstream. > > You might as well have said "show me a project where the leaders don't > make decisions". Exactly. > So what? We can still question the logic in said decisions. The decisions can be questioned and scrutinized, of course. But you questioned the method of making those decisions, and that was what I responded to. > >>> IME, at least on > >>> my daytime job, source code produced by people these days with popular > >>> IDEs (not Emacs) includes TABs. > >> > >> Does it include tabs in the same fashion as what is produced by Emacs? > >> Which actually mixes tabs and spaces. > > > > Why does it matter? If we'd make the default use only TABs, would you > > agree then? > > You would not be able to -- it would be just as breaking, and it would > require even more changes, including various major modes. Like > synchronizing tab-width and the *-indent-level variables. > > But it would make more sense, at least. So who dodges the questions now? > It does matter if you are at all interested in the current popular > practices around tabs vs spaces (meaning being interested in what people > ultimately want: Emacs users generally don't get to choose the current > project style at the workplace). We have enough customization variables to fit any style out there, I think. Changing the defaults according to the current average fashion out there makes very little sense in a program as stable as Emacs is supposed to be. > When we look at the polls about indentation style preference (where > "tabs" can be as high as ~30% for certain languages), they don't prefer > the kind of tab-based indentation that Emacs does. Which really means we > only satisfy some tiny fraction of the users OOTB in any language. Says you.